Some feedback - Page 2

Some feedback

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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Some feedback

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

Licho wrote:In cost effectivity stats we measure its crappier than say ravager..
ravager is fast and often used to exploit so it spends alot of time blowing up bases, which probably affects its stats? Ravager dies horribly to zeus when both are in range of eachother.
Google_Frog
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Google_Frog »

400m for the AA spider, that has only has 100dps. Makes it very hard for spider players to counter gunship rushes in teamgames.
It has high range and weight and is all terrain. For early gunships the factory has Venom. Although the most recent change was 300->220 damage because it was the best AA available at the time. That may have been a little extreme.

Tick has always looked like a unit that should be too powerful but noone has demonstrated it. They have had years to do so. The nature of the unit makes it a bit hard to judge so I would hate to nerf it without observing it as too good.

Although on the other hand I'm not sure if we would notice a nerf of, for example, Time 30s -> 20s and Damage 4000 -> 300. Most of Tick's effect is whether it hits. not how much damage it deals when it does.

In closed testing with Zeus vs Ravager Zeus lost every time. This was 15 (3750) Ravager vs 11 (3850) Zeus. I was a bit surprised at this although it was fairly close when I made the Zeus dance. Ravager also has the speed advantage so it should be able to choose when to engage. This shows that it is not quite so clear cut.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Some feedback

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

in a recent game I had about 10 out of my ~14 active units, including my commander, ticked near the beginning of a 5v5 on stormseige. I was playing shield bots, had a mix of bandit, thug, the skirmisher, anti air bots etc that were in close proximity to take advantage of the thug shields.

With my military emp'd for 30 seconds I was promptly butchered, with nothing I could do in retaliation. :(
Saktoth
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Saktoth »

Sea: Licho and Google told me that sea balance was working out fine and not to touch it. Last time i tried to bring this up (which was a fair few months ago now, to be fair) you both said dont change it.

The problem is rushing, there needs to be a defensive unit viable for stopping both vette and hover rushes, if not gunship too. Every time i try to discuss what to do about this (esp torpedoes hitting hovers) I dont get much of a constructive response. The Torp module (+ the shipyard buffs and vette nerfs, though the torp module is the important bit) should help.

Tick: IMO its fine. If someone is using it as a landmine on your com, (and you're movements are that predictable) thats clever play that should be rewarded- sweep the area first with a raider. If its mid game and the lines have met, watch your radar like a hawk for fast units that disappear off your radar. Google used to render my crawlies totally useless by doing this, spotting every one and marking them. If he's just running the ticks in, make sure you have an accurate unit that can deal with this. A single raider and fast reflexes is enough. Hell, with most comm weapons, you should be able to kill the tick before it can get close enough to stun you 100%. Shieldbots do have a specific problem with ticks (clustered light units, shields that AoE passes through, few accurate units), but try going felon/thug or felon/shieldgen instead of thug/rogue or outlaw/rogue. Felons snipe ticks perfectly. Alternatively, just expand leapfrogging MT's. Tick is just one of those units that is very rewarding with micro, and the counter is more micro (or moving with static-d).

Seriously you think ticks are bad, wait until someone hits your comm with a spy. You'll never compush again.

Spider: Crabe is great, use it as a mobile AoE turret, you must take advantage of the armor bonus.

Flea CAN take out lone MT's/LLT's along cliffs etc surprisingly easily, if you look at cost not unit count (consider how much more territory he has to cover with these on a hilly map). This factory also eats LLT/MT alive, with venom, cudgel, and recluse. In fact, vs a spider player, you can usually just cross LLT off your list of defensive buildings.

Spiders are meant to be weak vs gunships, because gunships are so good as a reactive defense force, and spiders can attack from any angle. The spider AA is therefore adapted more to counter fighters/bombers. With AA nerfs vs gunship though, gunships are used a lot more for offense and rushes. However, truth is, static AA (esp razor, flak) is what will save you from gunships, regardless of factory. Spider AA can be used it kite gunships and retreat behind static AA if they get rushed, though. Venom -will- work against the lighter gunships, but not like warrior/outlaw/leveler do.

Rogue/Halberd: Slow moving rockets is deliberate, 0K is meant to have a very strong counter structure, with some units being very poor against fast enemies. Rogue and Halberd are among those units.

Thug: Thug is not meant to have a strong weapon, you're meant to use it with storm/outlaw and use thugs mostly to tank and provide supporting fire. Thats why we reverted it KR. If it needs a buff buff its HP/shield. The nerf to shield charge transfer may have cut thug efficiency too much, so a buff may be warranted. The new AoE weapons (esp flame balls) also hurt the thug a lot.

Zeus: Zeus needs to be worse vs raiders, targetmoveerror is simply ineffecient and a bad tag. I'd support reducing its DPS and making it more about stunning a single target and slowly killing it than about insta-gibbing raiders. Let it stun one raider easily, but require at least one more shot to finish it off, while the other raiders chew through the zeus. I think this is more interesting than just missing, like most assaults do.
varikonniemi
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Re: Some feedback

Post by varikonniemi »

Licho wrote:Crabe is likewise very good, it can outrange HLT (use AOE) and dont forget it takes 1/4 damage when not moving (curled up).
I never knew this! How about adding some GFX effect that activates when the 1/4 damage goes into effect?
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CarRepairer
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Re: Some feedback

Post by CarRepairer »

varikonniemi wrote:
Licho wrote:Crabe is likewise very good, it can outrange HLT (use AOE) and dont forget it takes 1/4 damage when not moving (curled up).
I never knew this! How about adding some GFX effect that activates when the 1/4 damage goes into effect?
Good idea! Like an animation that shows the crabe get into a defensive bunkered-down position by using its own legs as a shield from damage. I will go add that right now...

Done! It's in the game, go see it!
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Otherside
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Otherside »

Tick is not fine...

20 seconds (heck even 10 seconds of EMP) on a cheap unit like that is bad for gameplay. EMP for such a period of time is pretty much certain death in most scenarios.

It is something that belongs on a super weapon not on a cheap ass unit.

Prolonged period of stunned units is bad for gameplay!
varikonniemi
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Re: Some feedback

Post by varikonniemi »

CarRepairer wrote:
varikonniemi wrote:
Licho wrote:Crabe is likewise very good, it can outrange HLT (use AOE) and dont forget it takes 1/4 damage when not moving (curled up).
I never knew this! How about adding some GFX effect that activates when the 1/4 damage goes into effect?
Good idea! Like an animation that shows the crabe get into a defensive bunkered-down position by using its own legs as a shield from damage. I will go add that right now...

Done! It's in the game, go see it!
Hehe heee

So the fact that its idle stance is different from its moving stance should tell us you get 4x hp? Especially when the help text of the unit does not mention this.

What i was thinking was something like this Image

The morph effect for instance would work well, and would be so much more obvious than the unit just laying down on the ground.
Google_Frog
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Google_Frog »

Code: Select all

description            = [[Heavy Riot/Skirmish Spider - Curls into Armored Form When Stationary]],

 helptext       = [[The Crabe's huge shells obliterate large swarms of cheap units, and can also outrange basic defenses. When it stops walking, Crabe curls up into armored form, becoming a formidable defense turret. The Crabe's main weakness is its lack of mobility.]], 
Very few units have a significantly different idle stance. Those with a different stance usually do something important when stationary.

Otherside, do you mean while Tick may not be demonstrably OP it is pushing gameplay in a bad direction? I can see where you're coming from with the example of turret push to counter Tick. So now I'd sort of like to try out a drastic nerf but there are others that don't think anything is wrong and I'm not convinced enough to argue it.
varikonniemi
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Re: Some feedback

Post by varikonniemi »

Very few units have a significantly different idle stance. Those with a different stance usually do something important when stationary.
*usually* is not very helpful.

Currently there is no gfx nor any rule that tells us how the units work. How are we supposed to find out something that is in no way indicated?

By looking at the .lua?
Google_Frog
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Google_Frog »

description = [[Heavy Riot/Skirmish Spider - Curls into Armored Form When Stationary]],

Seems quite explanatory. The only thing missing is the multiplier which could go in the helptext (the helptext are in general far too fluffy). As for the idle stance thing I will now say a change always indicates something important happened because I cannot think of a counter example and if you think it is so pressingly important you can find one yourself.
varikonniemi
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Re: Some feedback

Post by varikonniemi »

Well at least the LLT idle stance indicates a good armor bonus... More so than the crabes.

I guess i will soon learn that it also actually has it.
Google_Frog
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Google_Frog »

Damn I forgot about that particular Midknight idea. He remodelled the LLT and decided it would be nifty if the second cheapest turret was resistant to artillery :?. So that little door could be removed. As for the rest problem is solved and read the helptexts for numbers.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Some feedback

Post by CarRepairer »

varikonniemi, you are expected to at least take a passing glance at the tooltips while you play OR have a look at the manual and unitguide. That is why they are there.
luckywaldo7
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Re: Some feedback

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Well, it is true that as much information should be displayed from visuals as possible.

It might be too interface spammy though as armored units tend to spend most of their time armored. With the morphing effect, an army of halberd rolling across the map would look like giant blinky christmas.
varikonniemi
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Re: Some feedback

Post by varikonniemi »

carrepairer: You should also integrate a dictionary so i could look up what fancy words like formidable mean. Googlefrog already said he has changed the description to state the 1/4 multiplier, that is a good start.

luckywaldo: exactly. However i think your halberd army with such an effect would still be pale compared to anything with shield -spam. That is some serious gfx clutter right there.

If somebody has got the skills to do it, i would suggest that when shields intersect they would merge into a big bubble, and not draw inside the shield.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Google_Frog »

I agree about helptexts. They currently lean too much towards fluffy flavour text rather than anything of any use.
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knorke
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Re: Some feedback

Post by knorke »

The german translation of helptexts are also bad.
Godde
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Re: Some feedback

Post by Godde »

varikonniemi you forget that shields doesn't work like that. When shields overlap they are still 2 different shields. It would be counterintuitive if shoots were stopped midair without seing the shield. I didn't like that in SupCom.
luckywaldo7
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Re: Some feedback

Post by luckywaldo7 »

A good point, although the only time something will pass through one and be stopped by another is when the first has a weaker charge level. So in an ideal situation, it could bubble when charge levels are equal and show the split when they are different.
knorke wrote:The german translation of helptexts are also bad.
Also apparently unintentionally funny: http://code.google.com/p/zero-k/issues/detail?id=657

Er, or was this you also?
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