Unit discussion: CA 6394

[TheThinker]

Just thought I'd start a thread concerning the latest CA mod, 6394, and possible unit fixes. I'll start the ball rolling and state that I think the ARM anti-riot tanks (level 2 tank factory) are still overpowered. The fact that they double as formidable AA bots alone should be a wakeup call to anyone concerned with balance issues. The only counter against them seems to be heavy tanks (which are expensive in comparison) and mines.

Maybe I just haven't experimented hard enough with counters. Anyone have a counter I can use against those units when in mass? Because they simply just pass right through my gunships, static defenses, and are otherwise superior to dragon eggs. Am I wrong?

Correction: Static anti-riot defenses are quite effective, but when paired with artillery units I think there's little stopping them.

[Licho]

Agreed, stats show its OP and its too good vs assaults.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

licho is that stat thing open source? it looks amazing

[Jazcash]

GO STUMPY GO

[Licho]

Of course it is, it supports any mod that installs stats gadget.

It runs for over a year afaik.

Gadget gathers game data and when game ends, it dumps texts to infolog.txt

SpringDownloader automatically reads infolog and sends data to main site which runs on springrts.com

[luckywaldo7]

Hmm mumbo is only 400, I thought it was more.

Anyway best counter is janus, it only takes 2 shots so if you have 2 janus you can kill it almost instantly.

[Pxtl]

Imho, it's a general problem in CA - there is a scale of "antiswarm" - there are ones that have powers that give them a definite bonus against swarms (like impulse or blast-radius) and there are ones that just are super-high DPS units (like the Mumbo). Balancing is tricky, because the super-high-DPS units can fail as antiswarmers if UP, but can be OP when you're just tweaking them out to be useful as an antiswarmer. In general, Core has more "true" antiswarmers that have more definite anti-swarm bias, since Core has more impulse-based units.

[TheThinker]

For me anyway, a good fix would probably just be to have the mumbo's cost adjusted upwards. Other than that though, I'd be happy if the mumbo's effectiveness against gunships was significantly reduced. Static anti-swarm defenses may be able to shoot back at gunships, but at least their accuracy is quite poor; the mumbo should share its counterpart's weaknesses. And besides, we already have dedicated AA units in the game, and the mumbo is just taking too much of their spotlight.

[JohannesH]

Agreed, stats show its OP and its too good vs assaults.

How can stats show something as OP? You can just see its useful, maybe more useful in most situations than some other units, but that alone doesnt say that nerfing it would lead to better gameplay.

[Licho]

If the unit is highly cost effective and has no unit that can effectively counter it, its OP.
Building such unit would always be beneficial to you in all circumstances.

[CarRepairer]

Agreed, stats show its OP and its too good vs assaults.

How can stats show something as OP? You can just see its useful, maybe more useful in most situations than some other units, but that alone doesnt say that nerfing it would lead to better gameplay.

It shows that it makes 1.62 times its investment. In the grand scheme of things, all units should have a 1.0. This would mean they make better cost vs units they counter well, but make poor cost vs units that counter them, and both those should even out.

This stats system is not perfect unless it would take into account how skilled the user (using their Elo) of the unit is and assign more weight to their use of it. But it's still good.

[TheThinker]

Furthermore, the mumbo, with its equivalent cost and 100+ higher hitpoints, quickly makes the level 2 ARM raider tank (whose name I forgot), redundant. Sure, the raider tank is slightly faster than the mumbo, but in the end the mumbo has far higher DPS and can take down gunships in its path. I've been experimenting with two Januses as suggested by someone before, but their slow reload time means they'd be ineffectual for defense or offense against large numbers of mumbos, even if their ratios are 3:1; Januses truly shine against static defenses or really slow units.

Mumbos are also superior to tanks for offense, since they have far superior reaction times against enemy units, never miss, and never hit each other while firing.

[Google_Frog]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mumbo is OP but I haven't seen anyone use them particularly effectively. Abuse them if you think they're OP and provide replays.

I think they're countered by defence and most accurate ranged things though they are very effective against light raiders.

Don't compare Mumbo to Panther. Panther is more likely the issue and has been recently cost buffed.

[JohannesH]

If the unit is highly cost effective and has no unit that can effectively counter it, its OP.
Building such unit would always be beneficial to you in all circumstances.

No evidence that it cannot be effectively countered. Just evidence that it hasnt been countered be straight up killing it while making good cost.

[Licho]

There is evidence, no units have significantly positive cost efficiency vs them.
Especially not those by design supposed to counter them (assault and skirmishers).

[TheThinker]

No evidence that it cannot be effectively countered. Just evidence that it hasnt been countered be straight up killing it while making good cost.

No one here said they cannot be countered. The issue is both tactical and economical; as I've said earlier mumbos have the equivalent cost to level 2 raider tanks of the ARM while having more HP, far more DPS, and the formidable ability to take down gunships (they never miss!). They also have superior reaction times to tanks. All in all, it's their high DPS-cost ratio that is the problem. They therefor outclass much of the offensive/defensive vehicles in the game for what they do.

I've already listed some counters (mines, anti-swarm static defenses, including uphill battles, etc); it's just that their effective counters (if any) are too few for their supposedly specialized role (anti-swarm). Either Mumbos should be adjusted, or other units in the game should be buffed. I vote for the former.

[knorke]

many versions ago i already said mumbo was op, esciaplly if you boostrush it on small maps due to high dps and and because it reacts so fast. (no gay delays turning turrets, almost never has problems firing etc)
I think it already got its damage reduced then?
But if i go "T2" its still the first unit i make because it can kill swarms of "T1" kbots very nice. Maybe thats the problem why some people think its op? Huge numbers of peewees exploding cause omgwtf-moments. But a flakvehicle has the same effect vs an air player.
Still there are games where the mumbos just dont "work" out, ie vs missle units or if they have no space to retreat after attacking.
For example 3 FFA desert triad. On the sides I find the mumbos always very usefull. But in the middle of the map they always die in crossfire.

[TheThinker]

many versions ago i already said mumbo was op, esciaplly if you boostrush it on small maps due to high dps and and because it reacts so fast. (no gay delays turning turrets, almost never has problems firing etc)
I think it already got its damage reduced then?
But if i go "T2" its still the first unit i make because it can kill swarms of "T1" kbots very nice. Maybe thats the problem why some people think its op? Huge numbers of peewees exploding cause omgwtf-moments. But a flakvehicle has the same effect vs an air player.
Still there are games where the mumbos just dont "work" out, ie vs missle units or if they have no space to retreat after attacking.
For example 3 FFA desert triad. On the sides I find the mumbos always very usefull. But in the middle of the map they always die in crossfire.

I give you that flak vehicles can have similar (but far from equally effective) hits against air units, but that still doesn't justify why mumbos are of equal cost per unit with the level 2 ARM raider tanks (400). They have slightly more HP, significantly longer range, much higher DPS, slightly slower speed, and for the same cost.

[Google_Frog]

If your main point is that Panther is worse than Mumbo then my solution is buff Panther. Compare the Mumbo to decent units.

[luckywaldo7]

Actually panther costs 280 in test (revision 6398)