1faction Raiders

1faction Raiders

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

Moderator: Content Developer

Post Reply
Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 2665
Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

1faction Raiders

Post by Saktoth »

This isnt a place to discuss the merits or otherwise of 1faction, such posts will be deleted, its about practical implementation.

Google and i have been discussing once and for all solving the problem with raiders dominating the early game (and dominating any circumstance where you need fast units for re-enforcement time, like often the late game) due to speed in 1faction, since this gives us a chance to shake things up and change the unit set.

Basically it is splitting raiders into two or more synergies. For example, peewee is an excellent general raider but is a little too weak to take on an enemy army. However, with tick, it can take on most any army. Its weakness vs defenses also means it doesnt last as long and you have to switch to rocko or hammer earlier.

Splitting raiders into two groups, such as an anti-building (highly inaccurate, say) and anti-static (EMP or grav gun, say) would ensure you dont end up with unit monocultures.

We could also speed up other units to counter raiders better (say riots).

Firstly, what do you think of ending the unit monoculture when you the need raiders speed.

Secondly, what are some ideas of how we can ensure the early game has at least 2 units in it? What units, what ideas, what setups, what relationships, what synergies?
Google_Frog
Moderator
Posts: 2464
Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 09:24

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Google_Frog »

Isn't anti-building raider just another name for faster assault? What exactly does anti-building mean? Any unit can kill undefended expansion so I'll assume you mean anti llt/defender.

I like raider synergies though, even if either aren't all that good against defence. Pyro just needs testing with it's new antiswarm ability, pw/tick works well. Gator needs something to make it less of an all round unit and weasel(new weapon needs testing) can be used for the role gator does not cover. Maybe Bandit could have more range as range is good against units but not turrets, it then needs a partner unit to be better against turrets. Hovercraft could sprint to run from enemy raiders easily and rely on fast assault hover for anti-defence.

To reduce the monoculture of raiders we need to make assaults bad against something other than raiders and speed up some antiswarm.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Neddie »

Google_Frog wrote:Isn't anti-building raider just another name for faster assault? What exactly does anti-building mean? Any unit can kill undefended expansion so I'll assume you mean anti llt/defender.
I think he means anti-factory. Anti-llt/defender would be his "anti-static". I'm not sure that a distinction between static and noncombative structure raiders can be made in an enjoyable manner through changing the accuracy and precision of weapons. If I attempted anything of the sort it would be through making some raiders resistant to or more potent against statics than others... resorting to either special damages, increased health or increased DPS. The former is out of the question, the latter basically means making raiders into assault.

I would prevent the monoculture of raiders by making sub-assault raiders and true raiders... the former capable of filling the anti-mobile role in mobs that the Glaive does at present, the latter filling the anti-structure role of the Glaive. This means making the former more resiliant and more mobile, the latter more vulnerable with greater damage output. However, this could reduce the scope of the traditional assault and riot roles.
User avatar
Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Pxtl »

I've often thought the same, that a raider specifically designed for demolition of lightly-defended targets, separate from the more general-purpose raiders would be nice... give the raider a sluggish, low-ROF, short-ranged weapon that couldn't hit a moving-target if the whole universe depended on it. Something like a little grenade, or Rocko rockets.
luckywaldo7
Posts: 1398
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Pxtl wrote:I've often thought the same, that a raider specifically designed for demolition of lightly-defended targets, separate from the more general-purpose raiders would be nice... give the raider a sluggish, low-ROF, short-ranged weapon that couldn't hit a moving-target if the whole universe depended on it. Something like a little grenade, or Rocko rockets.
Or maybe a stealthed commando with satchel charges :lol:

For the most part I don't think the early game is really that dominated by raiders in regular CA. I tend to start with riot-skirmisher combos which are really effective if you push hard and keep the pressure on.

I think the problem lies specifically with gator (and to some extent ak). Its just too good of an all-purpose tank with its decent weight, speed, dps, and like 100% accuracy. I think you should try making it more flash-like.

Although I would really like to see how Pxtl's idea plays. I haven't tried 1faction recently but I think you did something like this to weasel?
User avatar
Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Pxtl »

Thinking it over, the Kodachi is pretty much a "raider designed for demolishing defended targets". It can shrug off some LLTs to bring down a hardened target, and do general raider-work... but for pitched combat it doesn't hold up to the Instigator, and for shredding an undefended base it doesn't hold up to the Arm raiders.
luckywaldo7
Posts: 1398
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Hehe, played around with the weasel a bunch. At first I was hugely underwhelmed by its grenade, but if it catches something on fire it really does a lot of damage.

I think a single one of these things would be awesome fun for taking out undefended mexes. Just drop a grenade, go to the next mex, and repeat while each mex slowly burns to death. Also, they do terribly when massed (friendly fire) and against moving targets. Or against a huge target like a factory they will miss entirely if moving. Although atm those are fine tradeoffs for the huge burning damage it does.

Maybe keep these as your anti-factory/ anti-eco raiders. Then maybe you could also have a flash-like raider, which maybe less range, hp, and dps but more speed, that you could have as a "quick response" type unit to defend a large territory against weasels or to spam when the enemy breaks through your lines with a bunch of assault. If mexes exploded a bit when they died then the reduced range and hp on the flash would discourage you from raiding with them.
Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 2665
Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Saktoth »

I didnt mean anti-factory, no, i meant anti-llt. They might double as anti-heavy later on as well, depending.

Something like the peewee has an awful lot of trouble clearing LLT's. If we made raiders more like that (or other such weaknesses) you would need to switch up to something like Rocko pretty fast- but if we have a fast, raider-level anti-building unit, you would be using both to contain the enemy.

Of course, its perfectly possible to consider other mixes: Tick and Peewee are suited because the peewee does heaps of damage yet doesnt have much HP, if you can neutralize their weapons, it chews the enemy up. They're still both useless vs static defense though.

Still if you want a perfect example of anti-building and anti-unit: A highly inaccurate unit and a grav gun. Though this is sort of a kind of special damage, since buildings just take 0 impulse damage.

The Koda isnt perfect, because its got a lot of AoE and can hit moving targets. Its kind of confused that way (though the odd mix of inaccurate/AoE does make it sorta fun to play with).

I agree the main problem is the gator/flash, but any time there is one unit with a monopoly on speed, whenever you need speed (very often, its a highly flexible ability) you'll pick that unit.

On the new 1faction weasel, im thinking i might use the old amph tank (Kodachi) model as a vehicle with that weapon, have it cost a lot more than the weasel, do more damage, and have it synergize with the gator. Its also worth noting that the grenade sit around on the ground a while after being fired: So they can be very good at preventing an enemy from following you (we probably need a 'leave grenade' button that will just leave one on the ground so you dont have to force-fire to leave grenade as you retreat, if he's out of range).
User avatar
Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Pxtl »

The Kodachi works because it's a larger unit - it has enough armor to shrug off a lot of LLT damage, fire off the shot, and then withdraw to heal. By it's nature, the "assault-raider" has to be a larger, heavier unit than the weasel. THe only other approach I could see to an assault-raider would be some way to give it a temporary armor-boost. Like, instead of a "Sprint" button, the assault-raider has a shield-button that turns on a shield generator that lasts for a few seconds (and then the shield auto-drains down to nothing again)... but the unit must rest idle for a long period of time before the shield-generator can be activated again. The drawback with this approach is it would be extremely micro-intensive, so you'd also want an "auto" mode that activates the shield-generator at the first sign of hostilities.

Without some kind of magic power like that, the "assault-weasel" is basically the Kodachi with a short-ranged Rocko/Storm weapon, or similar slow, unguided missile that can't hit the broad side of a barn when facing a moving target. The only real design decision is whether to give it an arcing weapon or not - the Kodachi's weapon doesn't arc enough to avoid pwning friendlies, but if it had a weapon like the Logos rocket-infbot, you could mass them. This may or may not be desirable.
User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by knorke »

reduce flash/gator speed then put in a researchthing that makes them go faster. like the zerglings in broodwar have that too.
User avatar
JohannesH
Posts: 1793
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by JohannesH »

And how many different units are you able to make when you first get access to zerglings? Now compare to CA/gator.
User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by knorke »

oh sorry i didnt notice there was a reply.

well, now that is supposed to become a seperate game from ca (i think?) such upgrades would surely work because as i understand they want to reduce the unit numbers.

also, age of empires 2 has a quite large number of units as well and even more upgrade/research stuff.
but i think even in normal ca something like "put this modul on your factory to give raider tanks a speed boost" would work. Would also be interessting for scouting, if you see the enemy make the speedboostthing you know he is going for flashspam. If he does not make this, he might be saving the money for teching or turretcreep or w/e
Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 2665
Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

Re: 1faction Raiders

Post by Saktoth »

I dont know if speed upgrades are the way to go with that, it would seriously alter the balance model and games progression to have to unlock range, speed armour, weapon upgrades etc.

I think it might be worth considering unlocking tech for cloakers etc, though we could do that through factories (IE have a stealth factory which is the only source of cloaker bots) or con-specific buildings (IE, only tank constructors can make shields, or whatever).
Post Reply

Return to “Zero-K”