How to get more players now? - Page 3

How to get more players now?

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Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Pxtl »

albator wrote:The oonly reason I dont play CA, but BA or XTA or SA :

My comp is 5 years old and I can play BA, XTA and SA with descent framerate. But when i play CA, i got too low fps after ~7mins

PS: my setting all are at the lowest preset.
It's not the settings, it's the widgets. If you turn off certain widgets, CA runs as smoothly as any other... in fact, other than the air-swarms, I find CA is easier than my comp than BA in the late-game, since CA lacks the infinite-geometric-growth of BA that produces fields of hundreds of fusions, makers, and nanotowers.
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Nemo
Spring 1944 Developer
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Joined: 30 Jan 2005, 19:44

Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Nemo »

Pxtl wrote:
Nemo wrote:+1 on host your own server. We've had a bot in #s44 recently that tracks people who arrive from our installer (join #s44 but not #main, #springlobby, or #newbies). At any given point, we have 3-4 people who used the S44 installer and arrived here with the expectation of S44, but are playing BA. We have springlobby configured to mask non 1944 games by default, but it does next to nothing.
That's gotta hurt.
Yeah, bit of a FML moment.

For reference, this bot has only been running for about 6 days, and we already have 115 users logged. Given our practically non existent retention rate at the moment, they're practically all new users - say 80% new users for a conservative estimate. CA has more manpower behind it, so you could launch a much more aggressive marketing campaign than S44 has managed thus far.
V1ntage
Posts: 101
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 22:32

Re: How to get more players now?

Post by V1ntage »

long term suggestion, if it's not already on the planning:

Slowly convert CA from a TA-based game into something completely original. That means not only changing the models and modelnames, but also the underlying game structure and game design.

Slowly fundamentally changing a game may create some resistance with the existing player base. So, it may be wise to start with a clean slate by branching and removing all TA-related units, leaving only original concepts. Then slowly add new gameplay elements and units one by one. Work on the fundamentals.

Making the game unique makes it harder to "steal" elements since they will be characteristic for CA. It will also solve all remaining legal issues.

I'm aware this is a very large initiative and I'm willing to help wherever I can (web,2D,3D,sound).
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SpliFF
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by SpliFF »

Despite all the complaints about widgets the truth is they are CA's strength. No other mod, except perhaps Spring 1944, has as many talented coders. It was also being put around at one point that the CA team *encouraged* players to use widgets rather than treating them as cheats. I consider this a good thing, since automation provides breathing room to properly consider tactics. The problem is not the number of widgets, but the way are are presented - literally shoved in the n00bs face - while even the basic concepts of the game are new. You can't even get at the map for all the clutter. This is best tried on a small screen (shown here at a reasonable 1024x768).

Image

I think I have a unit under there somewhere??!!

* Seriously what the fuck is mex overdrive, why is it in the MIDDLE of my screen??
* Why is debug output spewing over my minimap?
* Why are there menu/game buttons in the middle of my screen?
* What is Lock Camera doing there? Am I supposed to press it now?
* I'm clicking the tank/plane/nuke button on the right but they aren't coming!
* how do I shoot nubtron?!

I strongly recommend redesigning the UI so the UI is absolutely minimal when CA is installed but widgets can be easily found and activated 1-by-1. I don't mean something like the secret F11 menu (which I didn't even know was there for months) but some kind of buttonbar where each button toggles a widget.

PS. A quick note about Spring Downloader. You mention it often (here and on your website) as being the best way to get CA. That may be the case but I tell you right now it doesn't even work (XP SP2 / .Net 2.0). It just sits as a hidden task (no taskbar icon even). It does however manage to bug me about registering my maps/mods and despite using it for months in the past I still have no idea what that even means. If you want it to be your primary distribution method you need to have a good hard look at it across a variety of systems.

Frankly CA's barrier to entry is much too high due to its poor interface. Before you do anything else find a good UI artist and put them to work organizing and simplifying it.
Last edited by SpliFF on 26 Aug 2009, 18:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Pxtl
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Pxtl »

That. The "widgets barfed into the middle of the screen" is a big pisser when starting out in CA.

However, the menu you desire appears to be coming along in the CA menu.

Mex Overdrive does need to be on the screen - it's an essential part of CA. It just needs to be in a non-stupid part of the screen. Possibly with better explanation too.

Lock Camera is part of the spectator widget. The spectator widget is kind of hard to figure out, but once you get it going it's really fun to let it just show me the action. I don't know why you can see it when you're not spectating.

And I don't know what the tank/nuke/plane things do either. And I've played a fair bit of CA.

A simple piece of advice for everybody, not just CA developers: I speak ENGLISH. Not pictogram. Not heiroglyphics. It took me a hell of a long time to figure out what was going on in the Advanced Players List.

If you need to use an icon for space reasons, at least put a header over the cluster of icons so we have a vague idea of what we're looking at, and give each icon a tool-tip.
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by TheFatController »

I'd also recommend a "don't show me any more messages" on the help tooltips so you don't have to access F11 to find it.
pintle
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Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: How to get more players now?

Post by pintle »

Pxtl wrote:Mex Overdrive does need to be on the screen - it's an essential part of CA. It just needs to be in a non-stupid part of the screen. Possibly with better explanation too.
When is a good time to use manual override on your mexes?
Does it even have any impact under communism mode?
Afaics it has no need to be in the gui whatsoever.
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Licho
Zero-K Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Licho »

Its not good to say that BA is stealing from CA -- its just benefiting from some things created originally for CA, like various widgetery ..
from effects enhancing lups to stuff like custom formations.
And it would no doubt took models if we had them in OTA style.
Few months ago I checked list of BA widgets and 60-70% of them were created by CA devs originally for CA.

Many projects generate windfalls usefull for BA, you could even count even downloader system as one.. since right now, it downloads BA flawlesly but fails to download CA :)

Shame there is no interest in making missions/improving mission editor, it would also probably result in many more missions for BA than for CA.
SirMaverick
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by SirMaverick »

Gota wrote:TBH I can understand if the CA team does not feel a strong urge to share stuff with the other TA projects that hardly do any work at all in comparison.
CA is a free project. Everyone can use parts of it if license is respected. If one dev does not like that he should not work on a free project.
SirMaverick
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by SirMaverick »

SpliFF wrote:I think I have a unit under there somewhere??!!
Yes, "Select units 1". :)
* Seriously what the fuck is mex overdrive, why is it in the MIDDLE of my screen??
Widget is removed in latest version. Bad start pos, yes.
* Why is debug output spewing over my minimap?
That's not debug output, that's a new console (replaces Spring default one). It's beta. Unfortunatly is was made enabled by default. And the default position is bad too.
* Why are there menu/game buttons in the middle of my screen?
Because it's made by devs. They just drag it to the favorite position at the first start. This is not friendly to new players. Where to set default position? There will always be someone who will have a problem, because many use different UIs -> different positioning needed.
* What is Lock Camera doing there? Am I supposed to press it now?
Idling. No.
* I'm clicking the tank/plane/nuke button on the right but they aren't coming!
Range widget. Shows ranges of enemy units. Same widget as in BA.
* how do I shoot nubtron?!
Move mouse over it, an X will appear... (or via F11)
I strongly recommend redesigning the UI so the UI is absolutely minimal when CA is installed but widgets can be easily found and activated 1-by-1.
Won't happen.
I don't mean something like the secret F11 menu (which I didn't even know was there for months) but some kind of buttonbar where each button toggles a widget.
What is the difference to F11? (I don't think you want the button bar always visible.)
Frankly CA's barrier to entry is much too high due to its poor interface.
+1
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Nemo
Spring 1944 Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Nemo »

Licho wrote: Despite growing numbers of BA players, fraction of games of alternative mods, including CA, decreases.
Just to go back to this: I've noticed a pretty similar trend, which refutes fairly completely the idea that mods aren't competing with each other for players on the main spring server. Of course they are! However, I think that mostly there's a group of like 15-20% of people in Spring server who will play most non BA games, and go back and forth between them (with a little bit of stickiness here and there; devs for mods, a small group of dedicated fans as CA has), but tend to default to BA because, well, that's where the games are.

Many of our arguments ages ago about separating servers were about how having all the spring games on one server was a boon to the community as a whole, using steam as an example of a successful multi-game server. Steam works because there is a cost to switching between games, and the developers don't care if users play Hl2 or CS:S as long as they've already paid the money for them. Here, there's no cost to switching games, and the developers very much care, because having people play the games is the only validation/chance to see their work in action. Separate servers (the so called "ghettoization") is the way to go for games that don't want to just keep feeding users to BA.

To put it in starker terms: very few developers have the intrinsic motivation to continue plugging on development without seeing people play their game. Smoth and KDR are pretty much the only ones around here, I think. Probably Azeromoth (the Cursed guy?) as well. If we have a situation where the non BA games don't have a chance to hang on to their players (or at least gain and lose them on their own terms, without having to factor in the bleeding rate from BA), those developers are eventually going to stop making games. A unified server like we have just decreases the viability of building serious, fully fledged games using Spring if a substantial part of developer motivation is to develop a competitive multiplayer game.

Anyways. TL;DR - set up your own lobby server, it's where S44 is hopefully going pretty soon.
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Pxtl
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Pxtl »

*are going to eventually*?

Anybody seen Fanger in a while? Centipede? No?
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by TheFatController »

Just in the same vein as the above posts, as the caretaker of BA I do have to say I really would prefer to see the Spring lobby full of a mix of different games and totally empathise with what people are saying.

If there is anything anyone can suggest that I can realistically do with BA to help promote other mods (other than lol break it) i'd happily consider it (ads in loadscreens maybe for example?) but maybe that's best taken to PM's or in another thread.
imbaczek
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by imbaczek »

ouch, that sounds like caydr 3 or so years ago... adverts on loadscreens would be cool, though, perhaps one per major mod?
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manolo_
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by manolo_ »

i dont want a seperate server, i like it how its now. its a big advantaces for switching between the mods
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Nemo
Spring 1944 Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Nemo »

manolo_ wrote:i dont want a seperate server, i like it how its now. its a big advantaces for switching between the mods
That's entirely true, and indeed a good part of the problem. The switching is almost always one-directional. The people who are willing to play different games are a very small portion.

I mean, yes, I think that it would be -ideal- if each game had a large enough population that was discriminating enough that they strongly preferred a particular game, leading to a server where finding a 4v4 of Gundam is just as easy as finding a 4v4 of BA, but I don't believe we're ever realistically going to see that happen in the current conditions.

TFC, I know you're not some evil mastermind lording over the other games, and I don't blame you for the current situation. You (and the other BA devs) have done a great job of developing the game that a substantial portion of people who arrived at spring wanted to play - after that, the substantial portion was large enough that new people who wanted to play 8v8 DSD could do so with your game. You're doing a great job.

Unfortunately, I honestly don't think that even lolbreaking BA would be enough to create a diversity of games on the server. Someone would just released FBA (Fixed Balanced Annihilation) just as day/noize did when AA was lolbroke, and life would go on. Ads might be a nice touch, but I'd be shocked if they did anything except draw complaints from the vast bulk of the audience.

The basic issues as I interpret them are:
  • 1) For new players, the cost of switching games from IW or CA to BA is very low, almost zero.
  • 2)For scrubs (non competitive players) and some others, large games (early in their career, doesn't matter what game. later in the career, it can only be DSD BA) are the only way they want to play. It eliminates personal responsibility to a large extent.
  • 3) Given that BA has #2 all the time (and I believe that it's basically good timing that BA happened to get where it is; had E&E come along a little earlier - early enough to go toe to toe with AA when it was released - we very well might be saying the same thing about E&E's dominance right now), people gravitate towards BA even before they have any strong inclination towards one game or another. Once they've played enough BA to understand the incredible complexity therein, they don't want to try anything else because changing games as an 'experienced' player has a large cost.
I think there are a few practical things that small communities can do to gain players within the spring community. I do not think that it will help them grow, but if you want more players, start organizing your existing playerbase. Say that "Saturdays at 5pm GMT are EPIC GAME DAY" and get as many damn people playing and hosting games in that small period of time as you possibly can. People are much more willing to try games when they can be one of a 4v4, or spec some big game like that. I do not believe that there is some 'killer feature'; co-op style features are as close as they come, but you can either 1) build lots of coop missions or 2) design new general types of RTS feature (which are readily adaptable to any other game, negating your advantage).

More summarizing: easily switching between games creates a 'knife edge' balance scenario - something designers always should try to avoid. That means there is very little middle ground between too useful and not useful enough, or when talking about a diverse server habitat, too popular and not popular enough, given how low the cost of switching between games is as a new player. One game will always end up drawing a plurality of people, and without a base of dedicated players for the other games, they will each receive less and less playtime and practically none of the new players arriving on the server. I'd argue that the only reason CA isn't dead like so many other *A mods is that it started with a group of people who were dedicated to playing that over anything else (large dev group/'fanbase'). That's the core that every game needs in order to not end up vanishing - however; that core needs to continue to grow over time so that the game doesn't slowly lose core members to the more popular games as finding a game gets harder and harder.

Living in your own lobby server gives you a chance to maintain and grow that core (convert 'peripheral' members - new players who don't really care too much what game they're playing - to core members) without losing them before even beginning the process.

Edit 2: Damnit, this counts as a wall of text...covers the height of one of my monitors entirely :(
Last edited by Nemo on 26 Aug 2009, 22:26, edited 2 times in total.
imbaczek
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by imbaczek »

Nemo wrote:"Saturdays at 5pm GMT are EPIC GAME DAY" and get as many damn people playing and hosting games in that small period of time as you possibly can.
that's a good idea. if the critical mass isn't there by itself, you'll need to create it artificially.

re coop: 8v8 are more like coop in the sense that they dilute the responsibility. IMHO coop modes appeal to the same playerbase as 8v8 players.
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Licho
Zero-K Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Licho »

Why isnt hiding the mod from SL filters working nemo?

There could also be "day of the mod X" once per month - when all non mod X games are closed or limited to just 1 autohost.
But i think people would just find it annoying they cannot play BA DSD.

But I would like "day of mod X" just to try all different mods there are properly..
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Pxtl
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Pxtl »

Well, one thing I'd like to see would be more lobby support for getting a game together. I mean, right now the official way to get a game of your preferred mod is to idle in their bot until you get a game started.

This has flaws
1) you can't launch a single-player game from the lobby at the same time to wait until the game gets together.
2) you'll probably miss out on voting and everything that happens before the "ring" happens if you go elsewhere.
3) you can only idle in one battleroom at a time.

Imho, if I could have a way of saying "I'm looking for a game of X, Y, or Z, and if X other players are doing similar, let's automagically form a game of whatever is preferred" or something, that might help.

As it stands, BADSD is popular because it's easy to find. You look on the list, sort by player count, and it's right there at the top. If I could say "I'm looking for any of this crap" and the lobby would find or create such a thin for me and any similarly-minded players while I go find something better to do, and then ring me when the game is created... yeah, it might help.

Then again, it might not. I'm just spitballing ideas.
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Licho
Zero-K Developer
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Re: How to get more players now?

Post by Licho »

What you want is quickmatching. I wanted to implement it too.. even talked satirik into it.. but he does not want it to start game directly. He wants to put you into ordinary lobby game which isnt best imo.

(To maintain community feel)
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