Comparing Logos and Nova

[Pxtl]

First off, I'll preface this with the note that I usually play Logos... but either way, I'm sure a lot of people notice this problem across a wide variety of mods:

The problems with the "raw power" faction. Whether the faction is called Core or Harkonnen or whatever, you hit the same problem: that both factions need raw power, so the "raw power" faction gets a handful of redundant units, while the "clever, heroic, stealthy" faction gets a variety of other options beyond brute force _and_ they get brute force.

On the other hand, Logos gets resurrection. This is pretty much the _only_ reason I play logos, is for resurrection.

Even worse, in CA there seems to be a problem that Nova units are better at long-ranged fire-support (not artillery). Nova gets the Annihilator, the Penetrator, the Hammer, and the Sharpshooter.

Logos has the Morty (which is outranged by everything I just listed, and has only slightly higher dps-per-cost than the Hammer), and the horribly-expensive Behemoth.

For the purposes of argument, I'm leaving out the striders, which are only rarely seen in action.

Instead, Logos gets a massive variety of assault/skirmish/riot units that are just mixing up various combinations of short-to-mid-ranged weaponry on heavily armored platforms.

Even in the raiders, you notice a difference. While the Nova and Logos raiders do equally well in a head-to-head battle with each other, they have different focus - Nova's raiders are faster and have stronger firepower-per-cost, while Logos' raiders are slightly-more-skirmisher-ish in that they're larger and tougher. Once again, everything on Logos is kind-of-a-skirmisher. While this is handy in a skirmish, it's a disadvantage when you need a true raider - a pile of firepower you can swoop into an exposed weakness.

When you compare them, there's a dearth of "special" units on the Logos side. The only "special" power you see on Logos is the ability to take massive amounts of damage, which doesn't really seem to match up with cloaking, stun-units, fire-support, jammers, and speed. Sure, you get the jump-bots, but the corresponding Nova factory has a stun-assault bot, a fast bot with super-sprinting, a cloaked sniper, all-terrain bots, and a long-ranged riot-bot that can fold into its shell for extra armor (odd, the Tactical Walker labs each have one unit which hardcore breaks from philosophy - the Skuttle cloaks and the Crabe turtles).

Without even getting into the business of "balance" in terms of raw power, imho the simple problem is that Logos doesn't nearly have as many tactical options as Nova.

Obviously, most of this is "I lost, QQ", but also I would like to see more diversity in the Logos ranks. Could we at least get low-trajectory firing on the Pillager? Make it a sort of "mobile Behemoth" to counter Arm's "mobile Annihilator". Logos already has several different high-trajectory mobile artillery options - the Dominator, the Wolverine, the Catapult, and the Tremor... although none of those have both the accuracy and range of the Pillager. Really, on this one I just miss the old Banisher.

[Otherside]

Firstly core is by no means the weaker faction i think they are stronger its just EMP is just lame and thats the edge arm have.

Shields are very useful and unique to core its part of there game.

Pilager is already better than penetrator no sense in giving it a low traj option as there is tremor.

Infact core has generally stronger arty (apart from the lack of it in bot lab)

Pilager/Tremor > pene/merl

Dominator is arty the closest thing arm have is sniper which isnt rilly arty and is expensive.

and in the veh labs they are equal.

i dont feel core lacks in tactical options. Core usually win with strong assault and can win via raiding(arm might be superior here with the cheaper/faster units and cloaking).

The same as Arm can win by assault and usually win this way also. Arm's tactical options arent that far greater than cores in terms of number. Cloaking gives a different approach but at the same time core can shield crawl.

At one point core were going to be given burrowing units but that would be a PITA to balance and would require new units just to counter underground units. ( i suggested depth charge launchers being able to travel underground give it a dual role not just a rarely used sea defense tower).

Core also has cheese tactics like clogger/roach and CANtapult

I play Core 99 percent of the time and i dont feel im lacking the tactical options arm have (i like to shield crawl). i just think EMP is OP :p.

New banisher is skirm/riot that can hit air effectively its good. Reason it was changed was because it was quite similar to pilager and core lacked riot options in the tank lab.

[Noruas]

Dragon Eggs also pwn passing light defenses in large groups, making a settlement of fire!

[luckywaldo7]

Maybe I am insane but I was under the impression that pillager already was low trajectory. I don't think you could make it fire high trajectory even if you wanted too.

[Raxxman]

I agree that one of the issues with Core/logos is a certain blandness in combat syle in that they often follow simple rules of

Tank > Bigger tank > Even bigger tank

Artie > Bigger Artie > Even bigger artie

Quite often Arm/Nova have a degree of variety, with nothing being really analogous of the Sniper/stun drones/Annihilator.

CA's game style has taken away a degree of ability of the pricey units. Sumos are meh, short ranged and slow, susceptable to EMP, Artillery, completey ineffctive at combating raiders unless the raider wants to die, The Sumo comes across a bit meh compared to the Crabs walking turret. Krows are too much of a flying bullseye etc.

Also the uniqueness is a bit of a issue, Logo lack anything like the sniper/anni/empdrones/empspiders and a few other unique units, while the only thing the Nova don't get is something like a Tremmor.

[Pxtl]

Maybe I am insane but I was under the impression that pillager already was low trajectory. I don't think you could make it fire high trajectory even if you wanted too.

Whut? I could have sworn I saw the things firing high-traj last time I used them... I switched to using Tremors exclusively after that.

*checks trac*

shit. You're right. Neato - now I have something new to spam.

edit @Raxx: I think the idea of the firestarter units is that "fire" is supposed to be the Logos answer to "emp"... but the analogy doesn't work. I mean, the fire is really just a part of the damage the unit does - it just takes slightly longer to kill the guy off... and in a pitched battle you're probably shooting the target until it's dead anyways.

The only way I could see "fire" playing like stun would be if it really put the unit out of commission for a long time while the player has to repair it to keep it from dying. Like if even a small exposure to "fire" would eventually lead to the death of the unit if left untreated, and the difference is only how long you have - a unit burns until it is repaired or dies, no ands, ifs or buts, and the cumulative fire-damage simply determines the rate of burn and minimum duration. Similar to the "poison" mechanic in JRPGs.

Then a fire would be something that means you have to take a few units out of combat for repairs, or they will be lost.

But that would be acid, not fire.

[Otherside]

Sumo are very effective if you shield crawl with morties and AA within the shield it rapes vs most anything. sumo isnt a pwn all unit.

There is more depth in core than people give them credit for. Its just cause people spam assault and find it quite effective that they dont try looking at the extra depth they have.

[Pxtl]

Curious, Otherside, what do you recommend as AA for that shieldcrawl? The Tactical SAM units get pwned by swarms, of course... do you build a heavy vech lab, or an infantry lab for your mobile AA? Or does the shield keep off enough heat that the tacbot SAM has enough time to bring down Banshees?

[Otherside]

sumo can help with gunships especially rapier/banshee and the manticore has no problem with dealing with any type of air. Shields are very strong now and more people need to make use of them

1 sumo 5 morty 1 shield bot an aa bot and maybe a domi for the range = a potent force

[Raxxman]

Not trying to sound Snarky, but how's that going to stop a Penni/sniper from dismantling you at it's leisure as you crawl forward?

[Pxtl]

I've seen Manticores get easily overhwelmed by Banshees, but they weren't backed up by a Sumo - that probably makes the difference.

Funny, I've been playing the tacbots a fscktonne, but mostly using the jumpbots for rapid territory grabbing and raiding/assaulting through the undefended cliffs. Never tried that synergistic approach - will definitely give it a shot next game. Thanks for the tips.

[luckywaldo7]

Not trying to sound Snarky, but how's that going to stop a Penni/sniper from dismantling you at it's leisure as you crawl forward?

Penes are expensive, slow, low on hp, and have a ver long reload. Use raiders to kill them. If you don't think you can kill it try to prevent your enemy from getting your units in los, as pene shots shooting at radar blips are almost always wasted. Of course, they might have advanced radar, in which case have a line of extremely cheap units (weasel, flea, clogger) for the pene to waste its shots on. Its shot is costly on energy, so you might even be making better cost on him.

As for snipers, they have tiny range compared to other arty type units. They are also slow and have low hp. They rely on their cloaking ability. Use a swarm of cheap fast units like weasel or flea to find and kill them.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

agree with pxtl

[Elkvis]

The only way I could see "fire" playing like stun would be if it really put the unit out of commission for a long time while the player has to repair it to keep it from dying. Like if even a small exposure to "fire" would eventually lead to the death of the unit if left untreated, and the difference is only how long you have - a unit burns until it is repaired or dies, no ands, ifs or buts, and the cumulative fire-damage simply determines the rate of burn and minimum duration. Similar to the "poison" mechanic in JRPGs.

Then a fire would be something that means you have to take a few units out of combat for repairs, or they will be lost.

But that would be acid, not fire.

No you had it right.

Acid would burn until all the acid was used up: ala CA fire.
Fire would burn until it was put out (assuming the unit has some degree of flammability).

[Saktoth]

Robots are not very flammable. The fire in CA is an incredibly hot-burning napalm-like fuel that sticks to the unit and burns through metal like thermite or something.

Lugar is and has always been low trajectory. It is basically a 1-shot behemoth as you describe.

Burrowers were always meant to be simply mobile 'pop-up's, a bit like the egg but less of a PITA to micro hopefully (say, no slowdown when unpopped) or like the crabe. They were never meant to be fully submerged units except in the magical mystical land of carrepairer and im sure you know all about the sort of things Car dreams up.

Morty is one of the best mid-range skirms in the game, except for the bot inf, almost all Logos facs have better artillery. The 'Skirmyness' of the Logos raiders allows for more finesse in strategy, while Logos has plenty of raw DPS, in say Pyros (the zipper is, comparatively, pathetic).

We have, for quite some time, been trying to add more special abilities to Logos to make up for the lack of EMP, cloak, etc. We dont want Logos to be just about 'brute force, strong units'- but we definitely want their special abilities to have a different flavour.

Logos has a lot of special abilities and niche strats.

Jump is not just a kind of AT, it also allows you to dodge projectiles, get into range faster, escape from an enemy, jump over/behind buildings and wrecks, and generally pull off some pretty neat stuff.

Shields are more 'brute force' than cloak/cloakers, but are still allow for some unique strategies, protecting you from long range weaponry and forcing the enemy to close with you. Ive wanted to add a unit with a personal shield (ala old crabe) but im not sure to what: Shield is used a lot with Sumo and it might be a shame if people stop building shield + sumo if sumo gets its own shield. It might work on Can, but shields are regenerating and the can is probably not best suited to have regeneration. A shield tank could be added, possibly a revamped Egg (since its hard to micro), but that probably wouldnt be quite as interesting as the egg is.

Cloggers can turn the battlefield into a bot paradise, especially with the arcing projectiles of the storm and thud and the tiny, easily hidden roach. Try using clogger/roach against a vehicle player on a mixed map, its a very micro-intensive and fun (sometimes, ridiculous) strategy. Nova has nothing to tank for the tick in this way.

The real analogue to EMP is grav guns, which although there are not as many grav units as EMP units, is still incredibly effective and versatile. Newtons can shut down attacks by small units almost entirely and break up an enemy force- if at the top of a hill, they will push the enemy back down easily.

They can also be used for some ridiculous strategies: especially with Cans and Pyros. You can launch cans and pyros using newtons and a terraform block (to get the right angle), then when you are over the enemy base, jump. The Jumpjets will allow it to slowly float down to the ground exactly where you want it to, taking no damage. This isnt very viable in anything but a superporc but is really really fun.

We could probably add a grav gun gunship, probably using that model midknight made for that slowdown unit. Ive wanted to add a gravgun walker for a while now, but it would require adding a new unit. Logos walker does lack antiswarm though.

Fire is sort of a reverse EMP. EMP takes the unit out of the battle without killing it, while fire kills the unit while not taking it out of the battle (IE, it dies later).

The burning effect isnt the only thing fire does though, it also does damage continuously as it passes through the hitsphere of a unit. This makes it ridiculously good against large targets, especially buildings. Since fire units also have really good raw DPS, its actually kinda inappropriate to add the 'burn' ability to them. Thats why it doesnt actually really do all that much damage. We could probably up burn duration/damage but this would probably just flat out buff pyros.

Heatrays, of course, do more damage at close range. This is good with shields (which dont work at close range) and gravguns (which can draw the enemy into close range if you switch them off- which is why i want a gravgun walker). Logos also has some other insane close range weapons, such as cans and flamers (which also do more damage at close range).

[Otherside]

maybe make fire more useful. By making units on fire take more dmg when burning right now fire is pretty bleh.

Using a damage mod or something for 25 percent more damage or whatever is balanced making fire units synergies with other core units because atm the fire units are pretty much solo units (pyro/egg)

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I think a grav unit in one of the t2 factories would be a nice addition (rather than a walker, as all the nova abilities are in t1 and t2) and would defo be a good mixer with cans and pyros

[Pxtl]

@Saktoth - yeah, I still need to learn all the tricks with Cloggers. As for jumping in-combat, usually I find that it just makes the unit a sitting duck for every straight-fire weapon that it was in-cover for, but I see your point - there are cases where jumps can get get it into a perfect position.

maybe make fire more useful. By making units on fire take more dmg when burning right now fire is pretty bleh.

Using a damage mod or something for 25 percent more damage or whatever is balanced making fire units synergies with other core units because atm the fire units are pretty much solo units (pyro/egg)

Like I said, right now fire isn't really any different from other weapons - fire does damage a few seconds from now instead of now. That's not a huge departure. This is why I'd say that fire should just be "keeps burning until put out" - here's my idea:

Fire is cumulative. The more fire-damage you take, the more "on fire" you are. A unit is on-fire until it's dead or repaired - there is no "timing out" of it. Fire is removed by repairing incidentally to repairing the damage - the more a unit is repaired, the less "on fire" it is. When a unit is repaired to maximum health, all the fire immediately stops. So putting out fire simply means getting the unit repaired, and isn't micro-intensive unless you want the repair bot to move to another unit as soon as the fire is out.

The logic is that it makes fire something you _have_ to deal with, or you're going to lose the unit. You may have seconds or minutes depending on how bad the fire is, but you're going to have to do something. This means that, if you can set a whole army ablaze, the player will have to do something about it instead of ignoring the fire and just continuing to fight.

This would make fire more analogous to stun-weapons - stun weapons force the unit into inaction, while fire forces the player to halt their advance for repairs.

As for gravity, the only unit a grav-gun even makes sense on is the Sumo (which is currently a dead-simple unit), unless you want a dedicated "mobile grav-gun" unit, which would be kind of dull. Simply slaving a grav-gun to the heat-ray would be good - whatever unit is being hit by the heat-ray would aslo be pushed or pulled.

[Pxtl]

As for more Logos units with shields, analogous to the old Crabe, it's tricky to come up with a way to make that unit different from just "X supported by the Aspis" - it's tricky to come up with a unit that would be a good fit for that. Assault units tend to need raw armor, not regenerating things like shield - possibly the Hammer, which functions as a screener for the Rocko, but that would be kind of redundant with the Clogger. The Goliath, being an anti-tank unit would be an obvious choice, but that might make it stronger vs. skirmishers which are supposed to be its weakness - shields are usually weaker against radiers more than anything else.

A more fun option might be to give a combat unit the ability to start growing a shield when it's immobile (which dissipates quickly when it moves), analogous to the light Nova units that become invisible when immobile. A nice unit for defense-creep. Any of the Logos skirmish tanks would be a good fit for that.

[Saktoth]

The fire idea is interesting, but im not keen on the dynamic of nanoparticles 'putting out' fire. You'd want to make a widget that just gets a con to go around and touch all your units to put out all the fire on them (without repairing them to max).

The problem with this ability is that fire does a lot of damage and kills a lot of stuff outright. Its very splashy, thats true, so there tends to be some collatoral and it sets a lot of stuff alight. But its kinda hard to find that role between the splash-everyone-and-kill-later weapon, or the kill-very-quickly-with-lots-of-dps weapon. As you said, core tends to have less DPS, especially on its raiders- flame is the exception.

I think a grav unit in one of the t2 factories would be a nice addition (rather than a walker, as all the nova abilities are in t1 and t2) and would defo be a good mixer with cans and pyros

Sorry if the nomenclature is confusing, but 'Walker' means 't2 kbot', t1 kbots are just bots, or infantry bots. T3 is Mechs (Or, Striders, i think KR or Car changed that one- just to make the nomenclature more confusing). The Juggernaut already has a grav gun.

Hammer, which functions as a screener for the Rocko

You mean the Thud and the Storm. The Hammer and Rocko are basically the other way around. Totally different units.

The Goliath, being an anti-tank unit would be an obvious choice, but that might make it stronger vs. skirmishers which are supposed to be its weakness - shields are usually weaker against radiers more than anything else.

The Goliath costs a bunch, it would be nice if the special abilities were accessible. Then again, the Crabe was about that cost range.