Shard 0.4/dev

[AF]

Your talking from CTs point of view, so far I have yet to be told the details of the CT Morph API, instead I keep getting pointed at an irrelevant API I have no access to as if Im to do all the leg work myself.

Shard provides an AI structure and some default behaviours, stuff you would have to build entirely from scratch if you were to build a gadget AI.

I've had people who know lua request things that take me literally 20 seconds to write, and require no previous knowledge of Shards internals to have been done. Even when I've directly said what needs to be done it isn't, and if I dont do it myself, nobody will.

The only person who has made any effort, is oksnoop and abma.

Oh and knorke who decided writing 100-200 lines of code and 5 minutes ( mostly copy pasted from AF posts ) was too much a price to pay, but that 1000-2000 lines of argument attacking Shard over a 7 month period, was well justified.

[Forboding Angel]

I'm not attacking shard, or you.

AF for some reason you aren't getting it. We don't want an ai that relies on any C++ component. We want something we can include with our games in the games files. Shard is uniquely in an awesome position because it is already almost totally lua anyway, and can potentially support just about any game. No other ai is anywhere close to this position.

I told you a long time ago, if you want shard to gain instant popularity, convert it completely to a luaai. I still stand by that. I would include it in an instant.

Set up an svn or github where people can grab (github would be ok because you can get zip files of the repo... in fact, for that reason alone github might be a better choice) the source, so updating is super easy. As svn all I would have to do is right click tortoise svn export and then dump that on top of the evo folder. As github, all I have to do is dl a zip, unzip, dump on top of evo folder.

I'm going to come out and be direct as I usually am, and it is probably going to offend you. Just understand that this is not a personal attack.

You do not want to do this mainly because it represents a loss of control on your end. You have no way to control what version us asshat gamedevs are using unless you update all our projects yourself, and that's a load of horseshit for you to have to do that. At least as this way, you have some semblance of control.

Allow me to rebut:
I argue that at this very moment, you have less control. At this moment you have users still running .21 ffs. As a luaai, you have to worry about maybe 5 - 10 gamedevs. As a c++ ai you have to worry about EVERY SINGLE USER (caps for emphasis, not because I'm yelling at you)! Moreover, if it works and plays the game well, it doesn't matter if it's the latest version or not!

I know this is hard to swallow, but your control is a moot point. If you produce a good product and continue to do so, we will use it. The quality of shard rests solely on your shoulders, and the quality of shard is where your control lies.

If shard becomes a luaai, and some newbie gamedev comes asking around for what ai to use for his game, we say shard and point him towards your repo. You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain!

I can be stubborn (Concerning this, I am. Very.), but on this point, you're being outright obtuse (I'm tempted to make some geometry geeky jokes here but I'll refrain)!


If you want help (screenshots, etc etc), I will give it to you, but only if it is towards my eventual goal of shard as a luaai, otherwise, there is no reason for me to do so (of course, that doesn't exclude me from helping just to be nice, but I'm trying to make a point here).

There is coffee on the pot. Wake up, have a cup, and lets get this show on the road!

[AF]

This has nothing to do with control, the only part that control has anything to do with is the part where i announce a new Shard with EvoRTS support deliberately removed in response to you trying to force my hand.

• It is ALREADY in a place that other people can fork and contribute. It's on github, so go ahead and fork it then put in a pull request, or submit patches.
• If you had bothered to actually read my reply, you'd see the there is nothing stopping YOU porting shard. The API is already wrapped nicely in a lua object, you just need to swap the calls to the engine object with calls to the spring object.
• If it really was about control, I have the option of making Shard contact darkstars.co.uk for a version check, and refuse to work if its out of date

So really by lobbying me, you are getting nowhere, you're wasting time, and your damaging your cause. So please, quit it.

You have all the tools and knowledge at your disposal to do it yourself. I have no need of it, my development environment suits me fine, and all your arguments are popularist.

But

If you keep doing this, and you keep trying to force my hand, I'm perfectly happy to shut this entire project down and withdraw all further developer, just to spite you, because you will not listen. And don't think I'm bluffing. I've already killed off major projects here after setting out simple rules for those involved that have been broken.

There's nothing stopping me going elsewhere if I have an AI itch to scratch, and I keep this here as a tribute to the community, to contribute my time and effort when it's needed ( which lately it hasn't been, hence the slowdown ).

So, I'm placing a counter on the first post of this page, starting with the number 5. Every time i hear you wine about this, I will tell you to STFU and do it yourself, then reduce the number by 1. When that number reaches zero, I'll delete the Github repository, take down all the downloads, and ask for this thread and all mirrors of Shard to be locked/deleted.

I am perfectly happy to continue development where it is demanded, but I will not tolerate political lobbying that refuses to actually listen to what I'm saying.

You going on at me about this is taking something I enjoy and turning it into a pain in the arse. I know the next Shard release won't be a "yay thankyou" it'll be a "wtf wheres the lua AI" situation, which is a huge disincentive towards implementing features from you.

I know you'll probably think this as an excuse to go "see we told you so" "this is why native AIs are bad" etc etc, thats a load of b*llocks too, and you'll be buggered oneday. Imagine what'll happen if Knorke and yanom are hit by a bus tomorrow and CT has a major AI issue the following day? It's all well and dandy saying that native AIs have an unnacceptable bus factor, you only need ot keep the C++ portion compiling, it has no behavioural logic in it to break, and the lua part is doable with a text editor, and there's a legion of engine devs who are happy to fix compile issues when they break.


Foreboding Angel Project Death Countdown: 5

[AF]

I'm that miffed that I'm extending the deathcount to ALL mentions of the lua AI port. From here on, mentions of the port by non-ForebodingAngel forum posters will also progress the clock. This includes complaining in the lobby.

[Forboding Angel]

No AF, I am not forcing your hand. All you have to do is say no. of course, that won't stop me asking, but still. I am not forcing your hand.

... I'm perfectly happy to shut this entire project down and withdraw all further developer, just to spite you, ...

This, is why it was removed. That and the fact that you tend to disappear, and generally, when I need you, I need you "right the fuck then". That's where most of the problem lies.

By all the above, you forced my hand. So, I did the responsible thing, and removed inclusion of an AI that I could not guarantee would be kept up to date (what about all these months when you had a busted computer huh?), I.E. Working properly. Keeping everything straight is already stressful enough without having you in the mix as well.

I already have a handicap in the form of the lobby. Thankfully, Koshi has bent over backwards and gone to the ends of the earth to accommodate me (otherwise I would be 100% screwed).

Also, when I send desura an update, it isn't released right away. First it has to pass QA and as they have a backlog, it sometimes takes a couple of days. So, if a new engine version were to come out, for those days there would be an AI that does not work. Not to mention that I cannot wait for you to get me updated files to send. Also, I cannot have 2 different revisions waiting for approval with desura at the same time, so if shard were not ready when I sent off the update, and then later you send me the files, so I delete the one I had in for QA, add shard and resend it, I get stuck at the back of the queue again. There is a lot more going on here than your feelings getting mangled. I'm sorry to say it this way, but it isn't all about you.

However, back to the issue at hand, I want to be working with you, not against you. I am telling you what I personally need, and how what I need could easily be expanded to help others and you are not listening.

Unless I'm mistaken, other than being very adamant, I have been nothing but courteous about it for the most part. I am sorry that you seem to have taken it personally (and tbh, you shouldn't have). You know better ( *I'm frowning in your direction* ).

One thing that bugs me... You mentioned that you haven't been working on shard (under the presumption that no one has asked or has any need). Is this "Countdown Clock" a way to discontinue working on shard and have someone to blame so it isn't "There goes AF abandoning a project again"?

I am loathe to call you out on anything because it feels like a low blow to me, but this whole "Countdown Clock" thing is a punch in the balls anyway, so true to my nature, I prefer to call a bunny, a bunny.

Un tengo el gato en mis pantalones.

[Forboding Angel]

Sidenote: I need to correct your "facts" in one area. Shard was not pulled to force your hand. Shard was pulled because you went off to lands unknown for months and months and left me will a broken shard and looking like an idiot for championing it so hard. I don't like being let down, and you let me, and everyone else that loved shard as much as I do, down.

[AF]

4, 3

I've told you Im here if you need me, but it seems unless Im right there in the middle of a conversation with you, you dont bother.

Lately to help you I have to sit in a lobby channel and talk to you and prise it out of you. Even then you won't give me conclusive reports as to what is exactly wrong, and no further feedback or material to actually fix the issue with.

But yes, the clock is exactly that, a punch in the balls, specifically for you, because I listened, and I stated my case, and you did not respect my decision, and pestered and prodded and nagged and attacked me.

But more precisely, I've said you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself in an afternoon.

I'm happy to continue with things, but you cant be silent for months on end and then complain Im ignoring you, and then give cryptic bug reports, then refuse to follow them up. Remember this is my project and I've chosen not to make ti a lua AI on the grounds that its a trivial thing to do and if there is demand, someone else will do it. Why will you not respect my decision?

[AF]

Sidenote: I need to correct your "facts" in one area. Shard was not pulled to force your hand. Shard was pulled because you went off to lands unknown for months and months and left me will a broken shard and looking like an idiot for championing it so hard. I don't like being let down, and you let me, and everyone else that loved shard as much as I do, down.

I was here, and actively posting and have been since 2006. I've explained over and over, I had a dev environment, I may not have had home internet but I could still post, I had other means of uploading new releases, but there was no need.

I wasn't even aware you had an issue until months after it 'arose'. even then I had to prise it out of you, and even then when I requested clarification, you gave me something vague that I had to guess at, and even then, when I requested screenshots, none were given.

And even then, I suggested a fix, that would have taken you all of 5 minutes to do, ( and would have been better done by you because it would have needed you to find the spacing value optimised best for your game and your game alone ), and it was not done.

[knorke]

Oh and knorke who decided writing 100-200 lines of code and 5 minutes ( mostly copy pasted from AF posts ) was too much a price to pay, but that 1000-2000 lines of argument attacking Shard over a 7 month period, was well justified.

he wait wut.
shard only got on my radar because oksnoop2 and yanom were trying to make it work for their game. So I commentated what would be needed and and that making a config like this would not be enough. But that "complicated" (for yanom & oknsoop, sorry guys )stuff would be needed.
Beside that, I never was interessted in/had need for it.

To be clear:

We don't want an ai that relies on any C++ component. We want something we can include with our games in the games files.

I am not in that we, my "problem" is not with the c+lua combination.
3,2,1,0

[AF]

Knorkes comment doesn't count because he wasn't pestering, he was expressing neutrality.

[Forboding Angel]

Actually its only at 4 because the sidenote post had only to do with shard .27 (iirc the version number correctly).

Whatever dude, if you want to be a jerk about it that's your right.

Smoth, feel free to say "I told you so."

[AF]

2

You have only yourself to blame, if you had been timely, cooperative, not pestered nagged badgered and harassed me about it, then I wouldn't have had to resort to this to shut you up.

And if you looked like an idiot for championing Shard despite there being a bug, then you shouldn't have been an idiot and kept quiet about the problem for months on end.

6 fecking months, pfft

edit: countdown updated

[Forboding Angel]

http://evolutionrts.info/Shard%20Repo/

You're just looking for a scapegoat so that you can abandon it anyway. And apparently you think that I am someone who will back down when faced with adversity. Yeah, not exactly my style.

Moreover, you're publicly lashing out because of a disagreement, and your attempt to make everyone suffer just because you can't carry on a semi civil disagreement is only a thinly veiled temper tantrum.

Allow me to turn the gun around and press it firmly against your own metaphorical temple. You sure you want to squeeze the trigger? You cause a lot of destruction via hate and anger. Are you sure that it isn't just yourself that you are angry with and I am an easy outlet? If so, I can live with that. Feel free to cuss and scream at me all you like if it makes you feel better. Doesn't hurt my feelings. But don't try to strongarm me as that is a mistake. Especially when it comes to you threatening to destroy something you care about, that's just stupid on your part. Of course I care about it as well. If I didn't give a shit, I wouldn't be having this conversation right now, but I am not going to let the developer of a project say to me "If you don't sit down and be quiet and stop asking for this or that I'm going to delete my project" and allow that to be a guiding force.

A while back, I was continually assaulted here and elsewhere about certain things in evo that a select few didn't like. I stood my ground on the things that mattered, and compromised on the others and everyone ended up happy.

Also, I noticed that your countdown clock is notching down every time I even mention shard, not every time I mention Shard as a LUAai. This suggests disingenuousness on your part, and confirms that you are only lashing out at me. You need to look deeper. For whatever reason you have this weird idea that I am your enemy when I am, in fact, your ally.

Also, I haven't made a big deal about it. I have only pointed out here and there when appropriate why, in my opinion, shard as a LUAai makes a lot of sense.

[hoijui]

forb, i actually think that AF is totally hot for you, and just don't know any other way to get your attention then bugging you, because of course... you are way to awesome for him.
i bet that is the only reason he even started his Shard project in the beginning.

i often want to be popular, cool and leet and such, but then again... whenever i see your problems, i feel happy again, cause i see how big of a burden that can be, with all the hatin.

[AF]

1

Those URLs will be useless once the next release is made:

• A request to remove Shard from the spring repositories would remove the lifeline keeping it alive between any potential 'AF death' and 'saviour replacement'.
  
  I'm sure Abma fixing issues, mysterious patches, bug reports, and future development would vanish overnight if I made it quite clear the project had ended. These are people who have mutual respect and they would happily cease helping knowing I'd do the same if they asked.
• In the past the community has not taken kindly to people using things that their creators have forbade

I have been forced into this as you refuse to leave well alone. I've told you quite clearly over and over again my stance on this, and you refuse to accept it.

If you want it, you can do it yourself, it isn't hard

You still have that option.

What would have happened if Foreboding had left well alone, and not decided to be a Lobbyist

I would have put forward the option of a lua AI, on the condition that no support from myself would be given, your fork would be renamed to say "evo-shard" and you'd have to make it clear, bug reports go to you, not me. I would continue with vanilla shard as is using it as a native AI under the premise you could take it and the API would adjust internally to spring gadget API calls. This way I would get the best of both worlds.

Instead, I see it for what it is now. A nightmarish headache that promises to never end, even when killed off utterly, it refuses to go away. Good job Forb, extremely persuasive!....

So what do we do with headaches that refuse to go away? We take all manner of pain killers. Please dont bother posting in this thread. Not even as an "okay I wont post again".

In the meantime i need to contact those developers for whom Shard is the only AI that actually works. I doubt Azaremoth will be happy to have single player taken away ( especially when he hasnt a multiplayer userbase to fall back on, so its effectively a death knell ). So that's at least 2 projects killed off by Forbs pride.


So to recap:

No, you are not getting a gadget AI port.

Now leave the damned subject alone. You're not going to change my mind. Actually you've miffed me off that much I'm more likely to take hostile actions against attempted ports ( and will if you push the death clock down again ). Do you really think I'd start a project like Shard and give it only 1 single purpose? You of all people should know I go to lengths to make sure my later projects aren't shackled to the spring engine.

[AF]

0

I've made it clear to you. I was thinking about it back then and I made my mind up and you refused to respect my decision, and STILL refuse to respect my decision.

You could have avoided this, and you soldiered on and decided to be an arsehole. You were asked not to post in this thread.

[Forboding Angel]

deleting all (future) forb posts in this thread, as requested by AF.

[knorke]

Also, a mod has deleted 2 posts I've made in this thread this morning.

wasnt me. would be nice if mods left a note if they delete stuff.

[AF]

Those were in the early days while I was discussing it with people and fielding enquiries to see if it was viable.

At this point you had only approached me once and I had not made my position clear.

Since then I HAVE made my position clear, if anything I made it clear before I started the death count.

You have been asked not to post in this thread, and moderators have been made aware of this. All you had to do was shut up and bugger off instead of arguing and harassing me over it, and you failed spectacularly.

As sad as it is, I have to follow through now, and I do not know what you hope to achieve by continuing to argue the point. I've made my position clear and now I'm doing what I said I would. no amount of protest or arguing from you will change that,

[koshi]

To me this all sounds like using various ignore functions would've easily prevented this drama.