Joined: 14 May 2006, 11:22 Location: san antonio, tx
Forboding Angel wrote:
It sucks not because of the layout per se, it's because your metal distribution sucks.
Take all the metal out of the middle islands, leave about 18metal per sec per person on each large land mass, and put the rest of the metal in the water on the outer edges of the map.
doing that would turn it in to tangerine almost exactly, and the chief complaint of that map was that it was too porc-friendly with no metal in the middle as reward for claiming it.
after playing this map more and learning more strategies to use, it's growing on me a lot...the vehicles slowing in the water isn't as big of a deal as it seemed earlier. games can last a long time, but i blame this both on the map's size as well as the two-front battle (land and sea). everyone should be constantly attacking and defending from 2 minutes in on whichever front they are playing.
ravenroadkill said something i think is interesting: this map makes use of every single unit in BA. i agree with him, but i'd go a step further...lots of units are used in very unorthodox ways. how many other maps offer using depthcharge launchers and dragon's eye cameras for front line defense, or turn flashes and instigators in to amphibious tanks that don't appear on radar until they drive up a shore? how many other maps offer the ability to send a swarm of peewees to dispatch the enforcer battering your islands from long range? submarines are excellent for crippling land units moving through middle, but if you rely on them and depthcharge launchers extensively, a hover rush will ruin your day.
not only does every single kind of unit have an important role to fulfill, many have unique roles they can (and have to) fulfill as well. i'm curious to see how this map will play out in a month from now when it becomes more familiar to everyone and strategies are better developed - it may play completely different than the way it does now.
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43 Location: Raegquitting Spring on 04/24/12
well, after taking a closer look (btw I apologize for speaking so bluntly in my former post, re-read it and is read like I was mad about something lol, sorry about that)
Try this. Generally on a map like this you would want about 3 vs 3, maybe 4 vs 4 but that's stretching it a bit imo. Put 5 metal spots per person on each land mass, and have the bulk of the metal spots on the outlying regions in the water. This should do loads towards diversifying gameplay, as well as making things a bit more fluid (hehehe I made a pun ).
Yeah i agree, its come up with some really interesting strats. Ambushing in the shallows with subs,, torpedo launchers shooting at tank swarms, and depthcharge launchers which murder kbot rushes (Due to their AoE). My favorite is sneaky invisible amhpib gators. Ive won the game twice using these. Ive seen people actually build medium tank swarms instead of gators, since they can fire above the water. Use the gators sneakiness as an advantage!
It also makes it much more important to have a sea player. Having the sea player contribute in a meaningful way to the frontline battle is nothing like any other map ive played.
Its not a hover map though. While hovers can probably sneak around the back and sides relatively effectively, in the middle they just dont have the power to stand up against vechs, ships, kbots and static defenses. They are still good, but only as a part of a mixed force.
I disagree about changing the metal placement. The metal in the water could do with a bit more consideration, but the war in the middle is the whole point of the map. Without the metal there it would make the map waay more porcy. The fighting in the middle is lots of fun, especially at the start. However, usually both sides get MRPC's on their smaller island, and the middle becomes a no-mans-land. Usually this makes both teams just start porcing.
Ive found air to be very effective on this map, especially when breaking the porc. Having the sea with the high mountains means you can skirt outside of the range of any AA or radar and come in from any angle with a swarm of bombers. Having lots of scout ships in the water or planes patrolling can help with this to some degree, but there are plenty of opportunities to sneak by if you take them (Especially if your sea player clears the way for you).
Making the mountains a bit shorter, and putting ramps leading up to them, would help with this. You can already build on top of them using transports or air constructors but you need air for that. It would also add a vertical element to a mostly horizontal map.
Anyway, it is a really excellent map, even better than tangerine i think. It encourages a diverse mix of units in a way ive never seen, and while there is sometimes some really horrendous porcing, im sure people will get used to the map and figure out how to play more aggressively (Sneaky gators FTW!).
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24 Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
it is excellent in terms of appearance; its the best LOOKING map I have ever seen.
Its not well designed in terms of gameplay, because it is very porcy. anyone saying "lozl its not porceh!!" is talking crazy because any map with opposed islands with a difficult passage between them is porcy if any of the players feel like being defensive, which at least one will.
one note though, crawling bombs own all on this map :)
what I'd want to see now is an agressive map with these textures and lighting :D
Joined: 14 May 2006, 11:22 Location: san antonio, tx
I appreciate anyone who spends several hundreds of hours of their life to create free entertainment for other people. I appreciate this more than the average person does, because I do it as well.
What I don't appreciate are snide comments, or using the work one has as leverage to act irrationally towards others. Forboding has spent fifty fold more time than I have making Spring maps, and has done more for this community than I ever will. I wish he could be content with this, but he is not; he uses it as weight to throw around, and I wish that he would stop.
Hunters maps are excellent, and he's only made two. He always hosts and plays his maps, talks to the players, takes feedback, puts up replays and pictures. People play his maps, enjoy playing with him, and host the map themselves. They develop new tactics and strategies for the map, and explore its potential.
He develops a community around his maps. His maps get played.
A lot of forbs maps dont get played. Same with a lot of mods *ehem*. Honestly, i think a lot could be learnt from the way hunter promotes his maps, and i think we can all agree that more diversity in maps and mods being played in spring is a good thing. Here is a mapper coming out of nowhere and making very popular maps on his first try.
I for one find hunters inclusive, community-building style to be refreshing. Especially from all the belligerent modder and mapper infighting we've seen. Quit being jealous of his success.
Joined: 14 May 2006, 11:22 Location: san antonio, tx
I'm going to go in to a big spiel here, so bear with me for a moment if you don't mind.
I think making a successful mod for the Spring community is probably one of the hardest things one could do. The problem with the community is that it is so small already. Let me draw a parallel here with UT2004 (I know, not again! Heh, bear with me.) UT2004 is a game with a fanbase several times larger than Spring's, yet it cannot even support all of it's different gametypes. There is a problem that occurs when several gametypes (or mods) exist for the same core game - people have their favorite, and the community splinters in to groups. People get accustomed to playing one of the gametypes. If two gametypes are similar, people will have an easier time moving from one to the other.
This is the root of the problem with Spring. There are so many extremely varied mods that the community cannot support them all.
Lets take for example Smoth. Smoth has an awesome mod called Gundam. I love Smoth's mod - there are countless hours invested in to it, and the groundwork is laid to become an extremely fun mod. As sad as it is to say, it will probably never be able to compete with XTA or AA, despite it being in a similar state to the early stages of both of those mods. The reason is that people are lazy - they could play the mod once or twice for something different, but if they really want to learn the mod and play a good game on it, they will have a problem on their hands. If they do host and fill up a game, it will most likely be half filled with people playing it for the first time. To get a good game, it's necessary to host with either an AA-based mod, or XTA, because that's what people have learned to play.
If ten times as many people played Spring, this problem would not exist. A group of people would form that say Gundam is their favorite mod, and the community for the mod could occur. The only way to balance a mod and make it fun is by playing it - over, and over, and over, with tons of different people and tons of feedback. Here, people say they want to play different mods, but they know that XTA and the AA's will be more balanced and more interesting to play, simply because more people play them.
At the same time, this does not mean Gundam is a failure. This is where I will transition to maps, because maps are basically the same as far as this is concerned. If you wanted, you could say that a map, or a mod, or a band, or any kind of art is only as good as how popular it is. In that case, the best map I've ever made is one for CS:Source, called surf_skyworld. More people have downloaded surf_skyworld than any of my maps for any other game combined. There are five or six servers last time I checked that run surf_skyworld 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's possibly the most popular surf map for Source, yet I do not hardly give a shit about it. I made it in one day because all the surf maps I played on CS:Source sucked. It's interesting that so many people love the map, so I know I did something right when making it, but at the same time it doesn't mean much to me because I didn't put much effort in to it.
On the other end of the spectrum, I made a map for the original UT called CTF-Hybrid which merged two gametypes - assault and CTF. This map took me longer to make than all my other UT99 maps, probably somewhere north of 200 hours. Bots couldn't work on it because of the merge of gametypes, and it was so ridiculously huge it would require at least 20 players to be fun. Needless to say, this map was not accessible for people to play, and therefore it wasn't. Not ever was a match played on it. Still, this map means more to me than surf_skyworld, because what makes a map a success to me is a combination both of how well accepted the map is and how proud I am of it.
I guess what I'm saying is that different people make maps and mods for different reasons, and if popularity to them is important, then they need to realize before going in what will make their work accessible to people. The sad truth of Spring is that until the community grows, the only mods that will truthfully be extensively played will only be XTA and AA. Modders who are making mods for themselves will be content with their work, just as I am content with CTF-Hybrid, and modders who spite the community for not playing their mods probably need to mod for a game with a larger community that can support it.
END SPIEL. DAMN THAT WAS LONG WINDED. Could (should) probably be a topic of its own. Anywho, as long as this topic is completely derailed, I might as well answer this one:
incidentally, how about a all land (no sea) map for the next one, hunter?
I'll be happy to, but I can only make the gameplay good if I understand what makes a good land map. The two maps I've made are rather large 4v4 maps that use sea, because before I made both of them, that's the kind of map I learned the game playing.
If you want me to make a good land map I'll need you to provide some demos of SmuGs and other leets duking it out on a similar style map to what you'd like me to create
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