re: Citalopram - Page 4

re: Citalopram

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Johannes
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Johannes »

Hmm, so when people are expected to just suck it up, they remain more functional than today when they're "allowed" to be depressed?

Was that what you actually meant, and how is it supposed to be a good thing?
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KingRaptor
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by KingRaptor »

Hoi, Hoi, Hoi.

Let me explain the difference between genius and madness with this blog post and this xkcd strip:

Image

Take for instance his patent: Clinical uses of polyene macrolides
which he describes on his site's About The Author page as such:
In 1993 Stankov discovered at his institute that the group of polyenes (macrolids) has remarkable thera­peutic effects in a number of chronic diseases, for which there is no treatment at present (see US-patent). The theo­re­tical explanation of this novel mode of action led to the discovery of the Universal Law in bio-science and me­di­cine and to the development of the General Theory of Biological Re­gu­lation.
He reports efficacy for a wide variety of completely different diseases, including: hepatitis B, HIV, food allergies, PMS, psoarisis, cancer, soft tissue wounds, rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, liver cirrhosis, hypercholesterinemia, gallstones, chronic fatigue syndrome...

Surely, successfully treating or curing even a fifth of the 24 conditions he reports positive results for, using just one treatment, would be a miracle matched only by successful cold fusion, no?

Where are the miracle cures? Where are the controlled experiments showing the power of the miracle cures? Anyone? Bueller?

tl;dr: Theory makes prediction. Experimental validation: y u no hav it?

Also relevant:
Image
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Panda
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Panda »

KDR_11k wrote:
FLOZi wrote:This. A million times this. I thank you for the eloquence I lack, KDR.
I cheated, I recently read a book by a psychiatrist on the various forms of mental illness and the many different treatments there are. He pointed out that there is no one size fits all solution and that there is no single true approach when it comes to these things, you have to tailor the therapy to the person and the illness. Meds can be a very important point in such a therapy. Of course there are cases where they do more harm than good but it's the job of the psychiatrist to make sure they aren't used then. There are cases where meds do nothing and talking was the big helper but there are also cases where talking does nothing and meds are a perfect solution. Other cases may require a mixture of the two or even more methods, e.g. sometimes just changing your diet can do the trick since the mind includes a lot of chemical processes that can lack the right educts. He even cites cases where the mental illness was actually caused by a physical injury or a tumor and after healing that via operation the mind healed as well. But applying some strict no-meds dogma is a really bad idea. Even if you know someone who was wrecked by meds that doesn't mean someone else won't be cured almost instantly by them. But what you should never do is underestimate the illness. It's an illness, not "just a mood" or "just a silly thing you're imagining".
I agree.
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Hoi
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Hoi »

Please, please. I am not a fool. The author did publish various tests, and I have seen his theory work with my own eyes. This is what truly convinced me.
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KDR_11k
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by KDR_11k »

Why don't you get your cure from Uri Geller?
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Forboding Angel
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Forboding Angel »

KDR_11k wrote:It doesn't turn you into a zombie, I'm quite capable of feeling anger towards some of the bullshit in this thread.
Not a total zombie. Intense feelings still come out, but the more normal feelings that are not so intense get suppressed (that is, after all the entire point), and to your friends it's a little bit difficult to deal with sometimes.

Edit: ^^ It's probably worth noting that I am talking about 2 people in particular here. It has been quite difficult 3 year process with one and 6+ with the other. The 6+ yr I get upset when i think about it because he isn't even the same guy anymore really. And 3 year just makes me sad because we were really close before someone screwed her over, sent her into a huge depression and now, thanks to the meds, she's functional, but eternally distant to everyone and doesn't really feel emotions much unless they are very strong.

You guys like to act as though no one has any clue, but the fact is that most of us are effected or are very close with those who are effected. It's not black and white. It just so happens that there is a very large grey area.
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AF
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by AF »

KDR_11k wrote:Why don't you get your cure from Uri Geller?
Uri Geller exposed himself

As a fraud. Quite a lot of peoples careers were utterly ruined in the process, and James Randi made a rather amusing video concluding his years long attempt to get Uri to prove his powers.

Hoi, just because someone puts forward a theory, and just because you cannot see any flaws in that theory, and just because it explains everything, does not mean it is correct.

I would very much like to see what claims these books have made, that have testable, real world applications, that can be reproduced, for which alternative accepted scientific theories predict a different outcome. I would then like to see if these test reliably produce the outcome predicted by the theory you prescribe to, and not the outcome produced by more conventional theories.

If they are indeed correct, please publish a paper and make yourself a lot of money demonstrating it in double blind trials etc


KDR is right, the human mind is complicated and depression is not an illness, it is a spectrum of illness, and one persons depression can be completely different from anothers.

In such a world of uncertainty one should not close themselves off to things, and should seek out was is proven and tested.
  • A person who studied medicine with legal powers to prescribe drugs, who has access to expertise recommended medication.
  • People in this thread who have suffered or are suffering with forms of depression are telling you to try it. They warn it may or may not work but you don't know until you try it.
  • People have linked to studies indicating the effectiveness of said drugs
  • We discovered the cause for KDRs unproductivity, and it's pill shaped
  • Some trolls tried to advocate the teachings of a man who predicts the end times of our planet in the midst of some Orion empire at the hands of reptillians.
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Johannes
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Johannes »

AF wrote:
  • A person who studied medicine with legal powers to prescribe drugs, who has access to expertise recommended medication.
  • People in this thread who have suffered or are suffering with forms of depression are telling you to try it. They warn it may or may not work but you don't know until you try it.
  • People have linked to studies indicating the effectiveness of said drugs
  • We discovered the cause for KDRs unproductivity, and it's pill shaped
  • Some trolls tried to advocate the teachings of a man who predicts the end times of our planet in the midst of some Orion empire at the hands of reptillians.
Missed the part about the studies indicating that the drugs usually don't work?
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Licho
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Licho »

There are ALWAYS studies that show that something does not work.
Thats normal especially when you are dealing with statistical effect.

However there is a way to include those studies too in analysis - you do meta-analysis of tens of studies and look at their results.

From this you can conclude that drug is indeed more efficient than placebo and medical bodies then start recommending it.

Meta study can even reveal biases - like unpublished "negative" studies etc, because studies should be clustered around certain value in bell shaped curve.
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Johannes
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Johannes »

Licho wrote:There are ALWAYS studies that show that something does not work.
Thats normal especially when you are dealing with statistical effect.

However there is a way to include those studies too in analysis - you do meta-analysis of tens of studies and look at their results.

From this you can conclude that drug is indeed more efficient than placebo and medical bodies then start recommending it.

Meta study can even reveal biases - like unpublished "negative" studies etc, because studies should be clustered around certain value in bell shaped curve.
From where can you conclude that? Not from this thread, you shouldn't at least.
KingRaptor wrote: Citalopram for major depressive disorder in adults: a systematic review and meta-analysis of published placebo-controlled trials.
Data concerning remission rates for citalopram, relative to placebo, are inconclusive. Response rates and symptom reduction scores in citalopram-treated patients with MDD are significantly better relative to placebo treatment, according to a meta-analysis of published reports. Evaluation of unpublished data is necessary to assess more definitively the effectiveness of citalopram for MDD.
Since obviously nobody reads any links posted, I'll quote a bit more from that studys results:
The overall quality of reporting [in the studies used as source] was poor, with insufficient information on the methodology or outcomes. Seven studies [out of eight] received industry sponsorship.
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AF
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by AF »

Johanne, part of a drugs approval process is to show it works, an expensive, intensive process that take s along time, and that it isn't merely a placebo. They don't just let any old nonsense in through approval, else we'd be seeing starburst sweets in pill form for curing the common cold.

What your saying is that these drugs, which cost billions to produce, billions to test, taking years of testing and trials and research, was worthless. That we already had a solution in the form of meditation and herbal remedies, and that there was no demand at all, and no reason why a giant corporation would want to invest millions of man hours and billions into producing a drug nobody wanted or needed.

Not to mention you're labelling the people in this thread who have taken the drugs themselves as blatant liars.
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Johannes
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Johannes »

AF wrote:Johanne, part of a drugs approval process is to show it works, an expensive, intensive process that take s along time, and that it isn't merely a placebo.
Yet there is no conclusive evidence that SSRIs actually work well...
What your saying is that these drugs, which cost billions to produce, billions to test, taking years of testing and trials and research, was worthless. That we already had a solution in the form of meditation and herbal remedies, and that there was no demand at all, and no reason why a giant corporation would want to invest millions of man hours and billions into producing a drug nobody wanted or needed.
Yeah, pretty much. Problem?

Not about the meditation (dunno anything tangible about it) and herbals part though, even if I like weed as much as anyone I wouldn't recommend it as a depression cure.

Not to mention you're labelling the people in this thread who have taken the drugs themselves as blatant liars.
Not anymore than you are calling me a liar. Ignorance is not the same as lying anyway. And god forbid me correcting someone who's wrong, so rude!
zerver
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by zerver »

I don't have time to read all the thread, but instead of those meds, I'd recommend to set a goal in your life and work towards that goal. If your situation happens to be boring/hopeless now, having a goal is what will make you endure it.
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AF
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by AF »

Johanne, I think it's summed up nicely when you say it isn't a cure for depression. Depression isn't something you acquire, suffer through, then fix, and never deal with again like a virus or a cold. It comes back, phases in and out, and manifests itself in an infinite number of ways, and there is no one kind of depression. It's like saying Citalopram is a cure for cheesecake, it makes no sense.

Nor is it ever claimed to be a cure, that's not its purpose
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smoth
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by smoth »

smoth wrote:Ugh, you are asking here, when even psychiatrists cannot figure out meds?

Here is the short form:
Medications effect brain chemistry, something which is dynamic, you could go from one shift to another and they really don't know what it is going to do. There is what happens for most fairly typical humans and somethings which are known to effect common aberrations in the brain. Such as how Ritalin(which was a dietary drug) has a calming for add people. Such side effects vary wildly, I have take more than a few with side effects of death.

I will not get into my personal experience too much, suffice to say I have no limiter on my engine and I have a strangling overabundance of thought. Whatever it is, it is uncommon/rare and I have not met a single neurologist who has found a definitive diagnosis. What I have learned is that any of this stuff is a very big science experiment with the pool need for testing being so huge that most medications take decades to become proven. So most of it is a best guess, take this, it might help some, oh wait, nope, try this.

As far as the sexual stuff. What you may experience is a sort of ennui, you won't feel depressed or much of anything else. Hence, lack of excitement which can translate into really not being interested enough for sexual arousal or lacking enough excitement to reach sexual climax. We are talking a sort of calm melancholy. Which is good, it gives your mind a chance to calm it's self and then you can step back off the meds to recover.

The most important part of all medication is to see it as a helper, a handicap to aid you through the moment and help you recover. Depending on your level of depression and income I would advise coupling the medication with therapy to help you work out some mental defense against the thing depressing you. The medication is not like an antibiotic, it merely suppresses the symptoms of whatever mental affliction you have. You need to use the medication as a way to buy time so you can work on defense against the things depressing you.

Don't know if it helps, but there is some wall of text feedback for you from a random guy on the internet.
looks like the thread went full circle. every post is a repost of a repost.
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forest_devil
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by forest_devil »

In ADDITION to taking the medication i would reccomend.

Take time out, go stay somewhere with quiet relatives or similar for a weekend perhaps.
Don't play computer games, losing makes you feel bad.
Get outside and get those lovely vitamin D levels up.
Make a cake.
Spoon more bone less.
Make some art (not on a computer).
light/mild meditation can be nice but i understand that its not for everyone.
talk to other people that have suffered/are suffering from depression, of all severities(since no-one else will understand you fully) avoid these forums (the odd troll does more then nullify the 10 nice people)
watch Disney films
eat the cake I told you to make.

when you wake up force a smile straight away even if you feel like complete shit.
dont be afraid to not talk about it to pushy nosey people that dont need to know

mostly do as doctor suggests :)
gajop
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by gajop »

forest_devil wrote:I
Take time out, go stay somewhere with quiet relatives or similar for a weekend perhaps.
Don't play computer games, losing makes you feel bad.
Make some art (not on a computer).
light/mild meditation can be nice but i understand that its not for everyone.
talk to other people that have suffered/are suffering from depression, of all severities(since no-one else will understand you fully) avoid these forums (the odd troll does more then nullify the 10 nice people)
watch Disney films
if i did any of that i'd be really depressed
dimm
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by dimm »

Eat nothing but ice cream and stay outside as much as possible.
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PicassoCT
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by PicassoCT »

Well besides the take the medication advice- just accept that live delt you this card. Its hard, its unfair, but thats the way it is. Make yourself a lighthouse- something that you archieved, that nothing can undo.
And whenever it hits you at 4 in the morning, and everything seems grey, like beeing burried alive in a ocean of sadness, take that little scroll of paper with that thing on it. Remember how happy you felt when you created it. It doesent work at the heavy waves, but the smaller ones can be controlled. Also know that it can hit you pretty unexpected at times. If it hits you in the midst of a test, you will regret not haven taken this pills.
A depression gets a self-fullfilling propecie at these worst of moments. "Life is shit" says the depression, and because you cant move, and cant think straight, it turns life into shit. But life is going to be twice as beautifull if you wrestled it from that dragon.


Good luck. And dont forget the sunscreen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfq_A8nXMsQ
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Johannes
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Re: re: Citalopram

Post by Johannes »

AF wrote:Johanne, I think it's summed up nicely when you say it isn't a cure for depression. Depression isn't something you acquire, suffer through, then fix, and never deal with again like a virus or a cold.
Curious that that's exactly how most depressions were in the past.

If anything there's research on how depression that goes away with meds is more likely to relapse than one without them.


And if you just want to treat symptoms, why not do it with a drug that's actually fun to use, like alcohol?
Or more seriously switching to more nutritious food and add some vitamin pills for good measure, would be the first advice I'd give to clearing ones head.
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