Spring more popular with EA

[smoth]

people do chat in main.

Springlobby can have version checking disabled and you can host any version of spring.

Devs do chat in sy but I was trying to get warm bodies to just help jk test as that is what he needed..


that's right, sometimes all the devs need is someone to try and JOIN that's all! it isn't very much to ask for this FREE ENGINE with all it's FREE GAMES AND MAPS.

[Jools]

At least I have managed to fix one point in that list of criticism:

The Escape key should deselect/unselect any selected units or buildings. (left-clicking on open terrain does this)

Get the keyfix widget.

But we have more to work on, I think especially this section deserves attention:

Overly narrow interpretation of "Attack"
Tank rush attack.

Units seem to have a mind of their own. I had a group of several gunship aircraft and some tanks. I ordered them to attack an enemy unit. 30 seconds later I see the gunships land, having travelled half way to the battle. Why? Attack means attack that unit. If that unit disappears, it means travel to it's last known location, and then attack any enemy units in the vicinity. Attack means attack.

Clarification: Essentially the problem is: If you order an attack on an enemy unit, and that enemy unit is destroyed, then your units that are still travelling to attack the enemy unit will immediately stop.

What I'm saying is: I do not recall experiencing this problem in other RTS games, even the original TA (although it has been a while since I last played it, so I can't be certain on this point).

In other games, I give an attack order, and even if that specific enemy unit dies, my units will still keep moving, and will still engage in the battle. They will attack the specified enemy unit first, and when that unit dies they will attack the enemy units next to it. There is no stopping en route to the battle after an attack order is given, even if the specific enemy unit I said to attack has died.

This I think is definitely the better behaviour, because it's what users usually mean by "attack", and it what other RTS games do, so it is what users are going to expect to happen - and that is why people get annoyed by the current behaviour. That is why I have listed it as something that I disliked. The current interpretation of "attack" seems excessively narrow and legalistic to me. If the answer is to "patrol", then perhaps issuing an "attack" order should (internally to the game engine) instead issue an attack order followed by a shift-patrol order, or an area attack.

[luckywaldo7]

Spring/games has had enough exposure:
zero K had a two-pages article in a big (the largest?) german computer magacine, is on several websites, on reddit it was chosen "game of the day-something etc.

That was 'Game of the Week' on Reddit Playdate, a pretty inactive subreddit, as it won with a whopping 9 upvotes, at least half of which came from current Zero-K players. Basically that was no exposure at all.

Also computer bild brought an impressive amount of players. At one point about a third of the playerbase was all german newbies. Reportedly most of them eventually stopped playing because of the language barrier.

Before proposing new epic marketing ideas it should be a requirement to read this review: http://www.dedoimedo.com/games/spring-rts.html

Please elaborate, because I didn't see any lesson in there except "Don't market BA and don't market to linux users", and the former goes without saying, and the latter people don't bother with anyway.

[Google_Frog]

I have to agree, none of his issues are relevant to a windows user with ZK.

[knorke]

Also computer bild brought an impressive amount of players. At one point about a third of the playerbase was all german newbies.

A third of the playerbase would be about 10 players or so? Not sure if that is so impressive. I mean it is better than 0 etc but from such feature I would have expected more visitors. Where did they get lost?

Reportedly most of them eventually stopped playing because of the language barrier.

Can you be sure of that?
Generally not much reading is needed to play a computer game. Most germans can read english but maybe there was just too much reading and clicking and not enough pew pew.

Please elaborate, because I didn't see any lesson in there except "Don't market BA and don't market to linux users", and the former goes without saying, and the latter people don't bother with anyway.

On linux, zerok-lobby does not work. So the zK install-process would have been basically the same? The zK website gives no hint that the linux is experimentell or inferior in any way.

For first gameplay impression, I think BA and zK both can give that "you're not quite sure what you're doing"-feeling.
Playing missions with springlobby is too much effort, so the best he would have managed to get going would have been playing chicken or vs CAI. Both likely a bit more fun than his "duel against a moronic bot" but it probally still would have been DSD. Not really a nice looking map and too big (=boring) for first impression.
Also player reactions on forums are basically the same as with other spring games:
1) Startpost by enthusiastic spring player.
2) Other posters ask how to start playing.
eg
http://www.winhistory-forum.net/spiele/ ... ero-k.html
Second poster has no map in the "Test the Game" menu. Probally means the spring.exe thing. Instead of getting told "forgett about spring.exe, start the game and join same game" the reply he gets is some bla about methodes to download and "starting spring with some parameters"

Another thread:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=19510.0
(I think that thread shows zeroK could really need some marketing guy because that is a bit on the emmanuel side.)
But generally I agree, "zero-K on windows" is probally better than "BA on linux." Would like to read such review as well.
Maybe you should contact the author of that webpage and ask him to try out zeroK? He seems to care about spring so he might just do it.

[luckywaldo7]

A third of the playerbase would be about 10 players or so? Not sure if that is so impressive. I mean it is better than 0 etc but from such feature I would have expected more visitors. Where did they get lost?

Most players, myself included, only play a few hours a week. So even if most of the day there are only about 5-20 players currently ingame, there are probably well over 100 moderately active players. Website polls usually draw about 300-400 votes after a week, so there is at least a sizable number of people checking the website regularly.

Can you be sure of that?Generally not much reading is needed to play a computer game. Most germans can read english but maybe there was just too much reading and clicking and not enough pew pew.

Well, Licho made a poll on the website asking why people don't play more often and an overwhelming number of German 1-bars answered the option "Because everything is only in English".

The zK website gives no hint that the linux is experimentell or inferior in any way.

Linux, Knorke, Linux. It's for people who want tight control over their operating, not ease of use, although Canonical and others still struggle to convince users otherwise.

[Floris]

on german tv... they always redo all the actors voices with their german voice-actors. They dislike subtitles very much aperantly.

[Anarchid]

I wonder if it's a very huge job to hax some gettext into teh springz. In fact, have been wondering for a long time, too.

[smoth]

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=19510.0

The visuals are godawful.

I don't get what he means. They don't look bad at all. Better than supcom 2/dow2 not as good as battleforge

[Floris]

oh come on spring looks like shit compared to ..... all other relatively new things.


Screenshots/zk/spring lacks subtleness or things just look clueless.



I've never heard somebody say: aw... that looks great, when being introduced to spring.

[Jools]

I've never heard somebody say: aw... that looks great, when being introduced to spring.

I have. And I think supcom looked shit too.

When I first played TA I thought it looked great, because I compared it to Dune 2.

When I first played suprme commander I thought the motion was terrible, compared to TA. When I tried spring first I found it to be an improvement over TA, and so did my friend.

[smoth]

they are often introduced to BA.

Seriously. What is a recent RTS that you can name for me? because I want to see a good looking one(don't list starcraft I don't think it looks good). DOW retribution beyond it's unit shaders is ugly as is COH and Supcom2.

[Jools]

they are often introduced to BA.

I don't remember if it was BA or XTA, but I think XTA. But the first impression isn't bad.

[Jools]

The biggest problem is the user interface, as mentioned in the reviews. People don't understand what happens with the screen when the happen to press c or delete, or one of the F buttons.

[smoth]

they are often introduced to BA.

I don't remember if it was BA or XTA, but I think XTA. But the first impression isn't bad.

you act as thought they are That different visually. They are like 99% identical visually.

The biggest problem is the user interface

Some projects are working on that but it isn't ba

[Floris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5RqU6O7riA



I dont think it looks like shit.

It has better shading, more details, consistent artwork, better particle effects, better map enviroment, better animations, and prolly a better ui too. Pretty much better everything exept for customisation because of its closed-source caracter.

Okay its up to you if you like the artwork or not (it's just a taste), but it is better looking anyway.

I personally think some things are too much squared but okay... I cant do it better myself anyway.

[Jools]

you act as thought they are That different visually. They are like 99% identical visually.

Well, I they are quite similar but not 99% similar. But I remember that I didn't think so when I first tried them, I thought they were very different. The similarity is not the visual, it's what lies beyond.

[smoth]

It has better shading,
- worse shading, the units shadowing is way too subtle They are just blobs.

more details
- more details with the same flat shading makes it look as detailed as ba.

consistent artwork,
- to the point that units lose all flavor. if by consistent you mean units are underwhelmingly samey sure.

better particle effects,
- no. everything is a white or redish glow.

better map enviroment,
- marginally. Just has cam locked within zones and less lod issues.

better animations,
- yep

and prolly a better ui too.
- yep

sorry man but no just no. I have been playing supcom



Jools we are talking about visuals.. please don't fanboy it up. yes I know they are different gameplay wise.

[Jools]

Jools we are talking about visuals.. please don't fanboy it up. yes I know they are different gameplay wise.

Oh, but I said they were different visually and same gameplay-wise.

[knorke]

on graphics:
I think the "godawful" was on the screenshots in that thread.
In it, there is one screenshot that is fullsize and shows the game from a players perspective.
And it does look "godawful."

On the language barrier:
Maybe some visitors indeed do have problems with reading lots of english text. But the question is, why do you have to read so much text in the first place? For playing a video game you should not have to read much more than "hit space to shot web."
I remember playing games with no english skills at all and just randomly clicked around to figure things out. (c&c, wing commander etc)
Good look doing that in a spring game. "But spring is more complex than c&c!" - then why does it say that zero-K is "streamlined"...

As the linuxguys review writes:

there's too much information you need to digest.

I think that is true. From installing, to joining a match, to actually playing the game.
This thread too, too much text that was already written in similiar form, hf.